news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

19 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

probably not but I guess needs to be briefed if she's doing the media run , not quite sure how much this happens or doesn't with opposition I presume it does 

she should have been briefed, but i still don't think its the job of a minor politician to lay charges against a sovereign state, more-so for the UN  or "world leader politicians", and that doesn't happen, cos no one does that at their friends.

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Kind of positive that Biden keeps mentioning two state solution...shame Trump will replace him in just over a year...

surprised that Biden wants to tie himself to that, the two state idea has been dead since the Oslo accords fell apart, similar problem to what we had in NI where both sides wants the other side to lay down their weapons first.

(difference here is that the other side would attack a side that laid down its weapons.)

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

surprised that Biden wants to tie himself to that, the two state idea has been dead since the Oslo accords fell apart, similar problem to what we had in NI where both sides wants the other side to lay down their weapons first.

(difference here is that the other side would attack a side that laid down its weapons.)

well maybe after all this it will be revived...need to bin Hamas and bin Netanyahu and friends.

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

well maybe after all this it will be revived...need to bin Hamas and bin Netanyahu and friends.

Palestinians will look to Hamas to help sort the destruction of infrastructure and housing done in the last week. who else will sort a new house for those who've lost their house?

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

Palestinians will look to Hamas to help sort the destruction of infrastructure and housing done in the last week. who else will sort a new house for those who've lost their house?

maybe, or maybe they will blame Hamas for bringing this destruction upon them. 

Palastine will need aid to rebuild, and will hopefully get it when this is over, but who will be governing them is the big question...

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

maybe, or maybe they will blame Hamas for bringing this destruction upon them. 

never have done before, as far as they're concerned hamas are the only ones looking out for them.

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Palastine will need aid to rebuild, and will hopefully get it when this is over, but who will be governing them is the big question...

won't get it quickly Israel has always been obstructive with letting building materials into Gaza (no idea why, think they think the materials get used for warring).

[Guest]

 

[cellar]

3 hours ago, lazyred said:

Don't forget parts of the left were celebrating the original Hamas incursion just after it happened. They went quiet once the scale of the atrocities were revealed. They need to be called out on it. 

Lots of people sympathetic to Isreal are calling for restraint and to allow aid in and civilians out and move to a 2 state peace. How many marchers are chanting free the hostages? 

Don't know if celebrating is the right term. 

I think it gets lost that this isn't an equal situation. Palestine has been the victim for a long, long time. Yes we can talk about how it is wrong to not call out the specific atrocities that Hamas has committed this time around, but its not hard to understand why support for Israel is (and should be) thin.

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

i guess they'll have his paperwork and emails from the time which should make things clear him in person probably isn't actually needed - perhaps he's really off sick, people do get ill, lady next door to me, a uni prefessor, is long term sick with long covid.

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, cellar said:

Don't know if celebrating is the right term. 

I think it gets lost that this isn't an equal situation. Palestine has been the victim for a long, long time. Yes we can talk about how it is wrong to not call out the specific atrocities that Hamas has committed this time around, but its not hard to understand why support for Israel is (and should be) thin.

a 'victim' of circumstances, more than simply "Israel" -  cos it required the UK to come up with the Balfour declaration, and then the UK to defeat turkey on the land there to take up the LoN's mandate, then to move to allow a Jewish state to be formed on the land it controlled .and for there to be lots of Jews in the USA to cause a big political influence there / lots of things.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Neil

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

i guess they'll have his paperwork and emails from the time which should make things clear him in person probably isn't actually needed - perhaps he's really off sick, people do get ill, lady next door to me, a uni prefessor, is long term sick with long covid.

Thats unless they’ve magically disappeared or been lost like has happened with Sunak’s phones (supposedly).

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I agree, I think it's perfectly sensible to wait for more information to come out before deciding who was at fault especially when the situation is so sensitive. When you look at Corbyn's response it does show a level of bias from him and it's crazy to think he was the leader of the Labour Party and fairly close to being PM at one point.

The interesting thing is I have not heard a single person on the left criticise him for leaving up a statement which is (with the evidence as it is now) false and effectively a conspiracy theory, this is an MP who should know better. It is perfectly fine to retract, delete etc as the evidence changes,

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

a 'victim' of circumstances, more than simply "Israel" -  cos it required the UK to come up with the Balfour declaration, and then the UK to defeat turkey on the land there to take up the LoN's mandate, then to move to allow a Jewish state to be formed on the land it controlled .and for there to be lots of Jews in the USA to cause a big political influence there / lots of things.

whole thing is a tragedy. Maybe it was never achievable. But we are where we are, need to look forward and find a resolution, but doesn't seem likely at all. Really quite possible that invasion of Gaza leads to a wider war that could become existential for Israel, which I guess is maybe the whole point of Hamas' attack.

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe it was never achievable.

quite possibly true, not thought thru properly.

[pink_triangle]

4 hours ago, SheffJeff said:

I know everyone will think I'm a conspiracy nut but the author of this article writes for the Israeli Times so I can't help think it might be a little biased in the same way I'd think an article written by a journalist from the 'Palestine Times' claiming the Israelies did it needed to be taken with a pinch of salt.

The thing is it’s not just a journalist writes something. It has to go through a whole editorial process, this is very different to someone just putting something on twitter. Of course it’s not as good a source as a video showing exactly what happened, but I haven’t seen many going after the source. The fact most left commentators are just pretending it doesn’t exist (when they would be all over it if it said the opposite) may lead to people drawing their own conclusions. I don’t rule out that it may have been Israel , but at this point it doesn’t seem the evidence points that way.

[cellar]

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The interesting thing is I have not heard a single person on the left criticise him for leaving up a statement which is (with the evidence as it is now) false and effectively a conspiracy theory, this is an MP who should know better. It is perfectly fine to retract, delete etc as the evidence changes,

People on the left have criticised him in this thread, no?

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, cellar said:

Of course there is political point scoring. It's happening here in this thread.

I feel if you point these things out when Trump and Boris supporters do it, then you need to be consistent. If you make claims and ask for evidence, I think there is a duty to at least discuss the evidence when it comes, not just ignore it because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I worry that those on the left may be susceptible to false news and conspiracy theories and I think there is a danger of making it mainstream. I think calling it out is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, cellar said:

People on the left have criticised him in this thread, no?

I’m talking people of influence which I assume (maybe wrongly) nobody on here is. Although if there has been criticism on here from his supporters it has been what I would call fairly mild.

I think the likes of Corbyn, Owen Jones etc have a responsibility what they put out as they do influence people. For them it may be about likes, retweets and building their own profile, but it may have the consequence of building up a group of Trump supporters.

 

[Crazyfool01]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The interesting thing is I have not heard a single person on the left criticise him for leaving up a statement which is (with the evidence as it is now) false and effectively a conspiracy theory, this is an MP who should know better. It is perfectly fine to retract, delete etc as the evidence changes,

I’ve not yet seen anyone mention his more balanced statement today calling for atrocities on both sides to stop . Who or what are you categorising as the left ? From this thread or elsewhere . Of all the politicians would it not be true that he has the best knowledge of the conflict 

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I’m talking people of influence which I assume (maybe wrongly) nobody on here is. Although if there has been criticism on here from his supporters it has been what I would call fairly mild.

I think the likes of Corbyn, Owen Jones etc have a responsibility what they put out as they do influence people. For them it may be about likes, retweets and building their own profile, but it may have the consequence of building up a group of Trump supporters.

 

Sorry just read this one … this works from either side though . Misinformation is rife 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The interesting thing is I have not heard a single person on the left criticise him for leaving up a statement which is (with the evidence as it is now) false and effectively a conspiracy theory, this is an MP who should know better. It is perfectly fine to retract, delete etc as the evidence changes,

They won’t criticise him for that statement because they can never admit that he’s been in the wrong or they don’t want to admit that because of their biases which makes them think that Israel are at fault most of the time.

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, cellar said:

Don't know if celebrating is the right term. 

I think it gets lost that this isn't an equal situation. Palestine has been the victim for a long, long time. Yes we can talk about how it is wrong to not call out the specific atrocities that Hamas has committed this time around, but its not hard to understand why support for Israel is (and should be) thin.

Novara Media journalist tweeted this about the attacks then apologied and deleted it afer a massive backlash

 

 

They are still trying to minimise the Hamas atrocities. Heres another Novara journalist tweeting today in response to a Jerusalem Post report from the forensic labs trying to identify the victims. He needs more evidence before accepting that bodies were burned or dismemebered.

 

[steviewevie]

I

 

[cellar]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I’m talking people of influence which I assume (maybe wrongly) nobody on here is. Although if there has been criticism on here from his supporters it has been what I would call fairly mild.

I think the likes of Corbyn, Owen Jones etc have a responsibility what they put out as they do influence people. For them it may be about likes, retweets and building their own profile, but it may have the consequence of building up a group of Trump supporters.

 

It seems like deflection to me. Let's talk about the issues at hand, rather than focusing on the ex-Leader of the opposition. No?

Easier to fall back to criticising Corbyn when struggling to defend an indefensible position I guess.

[cellar]

31 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Novara Media journalist tweeted this about the attacks then apologied and deleted it afer a massive backlash

 

 

They are still trying to minimise the Hamas atrocities. Heres another Novara journalist tweeting today in response to a Jerusalem Post report from the forensic labs trying to identify the victims. He needs more evidence before accepting that bodies were burned or dismemebered.

 

Not sure if I follow how this is a response to my post.

Do you think that Palestine is an equal contender in this crisis? Do you have any evidence to back up that position?