news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

whole thing is so depressing.

[Guest]

Saying that people should wait for more evidence to become available is hardly an ‘indefensible position’. Geez.

[lazyred]

6 minutes ago, cellar said:

Not sure if I follow how this is a response to my post.

Do you think that Palestine is an equal contender in this crisis? Do you have any evidence to back up that position?

You said should people didn't celebrate the original attack, I've just shown you evidence they did. If you want more scroll back through the Green and Pleasent thread on Reddit. I've also shown how they are now trying to minimise the extent of the Hamase attacks. Novara have influence among the left.

[steviewevie]

feels like we haven't really moved on as a species from a few thousand years ago. In fact we seem to be going backwards. Is this as intelligent as lifeforms can get?

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Crazyfool01 said:

I’ve not yet seen anyone mention his more balanced statement today calling for atrocities on both sides to stop . Who or what are you categorising as the left ? From this thread or elsewhere . Of all the politicians would it not be true that he has the best knowledge of the conflict 

I am categorising the left as the Corbyn left rather than centre left like myself, but accept that’s subjective. To me putting a more balanced tweet out doesn’t make up for leaving a false tweet up. With the situation sensitive leaving false information out there is irresponsible, but this is a politician who will never admit he is wrong. When you say “all the politicians “ are you talking about MPs, uk politicians, worldwide? I have heard several of his supporters say he has the most knowledge of any politician, each time with no evidence to back it up.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Sorry just read this one … this works from either side though . Misinformation is rife 

It is fine though when you fall victim of misinformation to own it, there are very few people who haven’t at some point. If you claim Israel bombed the hospital, just delete, retract, or say you just don’t know.

[pink_triangle]

52 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Novara Media journalist tweeted this about the attacks then apologied and deleted it afer a massive backlash

 

 

They are still trying to minimise the Hamas atrocities. Heres another Novara journalist tweeting today in response to a Jerusalem Post report from the forensic labs trying to identify the victims. He needs more evidence before accepting that bodies were burned or dismemebered.

 

I don’t think the AP counts anymore!!

[pink_triangle]

23 minutes ago, cellar said:

It seems like deflection to me. Let's talk about the issues at hand, rather than focusing on the ex-Leader of the opposition. No?

Easier to fall back to criticising Corbyn when struggling to defend an indefensible position I guess.

What’s indefensible about waiting for evidence? Many on the left have been keen to take this line when it suits, yet mysteriously changed course when it doesn’t. 
 

What’s indefensible about admitting when you get things wrong? I think it’s an admirable quality and we all do it. I suspect Corbyn would never retract because the reality is he comes from the position Palestine is always right and Israel always wrong, it will take a more nuanced view to sort out this shitshow if possible.

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It is fine though when you fall victim of misinformation to own it, there are very few people who haven’t at some point. If you claim Israel bombed the hospital, just delete, retract, or say you just don’t know.

yeah of course but it rarely happens anywhere left , right ,middle .wherever .  ive not deleted my initial post as it has no influence on absolutely anything and im still not sure and not sure I will be , so its on a page on a forum likely never to be read again by anyone 

 

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What’s indefensible about waiting for evidence? Many on the left have been keen to take this line when it suits, yet mysteriously changed course when it doesn’t. 
 

What’s indefensible about admitting when you get things wrong? I think it’s an admirable quality and we all do it. I suspect Corbyn would never retract because the reality is he comes from the position Palestine is always right and Israel always wrong, it will take a more nuanced view to sort out this shitshow if possible.

 yep its a great quality and something thats happened from a couple of us on this thread lately ... sadly for those of bigger influence its a bit harder than for those on tiny  efests . 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What’s indefensible about waiting for evidence? Many on the left have been keen to take this line when it suits, yet mysteriously changed course when it doesn’t. 
 

What’s indefensible about admitting when you get things wrong? I think it’s an admirable quality and we all do it. I suspect Corbyn would never retract because the reality is he comes from the position Palestine is always right and Israel always wrong, it will take a more nuanced view to sort out this shitshow if possible.

I’m not sure why he said that but there isn’t anything wrong about waiting for evidence before deciding one party is in the wrong. It does highlight a bias if someone rushes to blame without any evidence at all and as you say it is decent of people when they admit they got it wrong.

Corbyn is at the least very stubborn and never admits when he’s in the wrong or backs down. If he wasn’t so stubborn then towards the end of 2019 he would’ve stepped aside to allow a government of national unity to form. 

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

Novara Media journalist tweeted this about the attacks then apologied and deleted it afer a massive backlash

 

 

They are still trying to minimise the Hamas atrocities. Heres another Novara journalist tweeting today in response to a Jerusalem Post report from the forensic labs trying to identify the victims. He needs more evidence before accepting that bodies were burned or dismemebered.

 

Bad stuff. Besides Ash Sarkar, I never had much time for novara. Especially Michael Walker who I think at best just regurgitates leftist positions that he doesnt properly understand, and at worst does stuff like that.

Its unfortunate that he has the platform he and others like him have the platform they do so that those who wish to turn tragedies like this into another exercise at kicking the left, instead of just expressing their grief at the tragedy, or thinking about what is the best way to precent further tragedy, have all the ammunition they need.

In his defense he doesn’t say he disbelieves it but just writing that in this climate is idiotic. And from Rivkah, its hard to say anything in defense of that.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Hamas committed war crimes when they went into Israel. Because the normal thing to do should be to believe the survivors. And then because no matter what the order was, ultimately its a group of radicalised young men who have grown up despising and dehumanising their targets in their mind, being sent to carry those orders out. So to think they just went in and killed combatants and took hostages is be deliberately ignorant to the grim logic of war.

As I’ve mentioned before, the attribution of the hospital strike specifically doesnt matter. I mean, its still not clear. If you want to believe the IDF and the Associated Press’ analysis of video clips then you will do, if you want to believe the other side’s evidence, netanyahu’s aide’s early tweet and the UoL research group’s analysis, you will do. Neither is objective, neither is a thorough independent report based on info from the ground. Thats not possible.

But there are a lot of people who have evidently become so braindead by knee jerking to ’Miss! Miss! the Left said/did this’, that thats their reaction to all this sh*t instead of just sparing a thought for the poor f**king people, especially the kids, on both sides of the conflict, who are suffering. So much for empathy- that was so last century.

Edited October 22, 2023 by mattiloy

[cellar]

43 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Saying that people should wait for more evidence to become available is hardly an ‘indefensible position’. Geez.

Insinuating that people are racists is, though

[cellar]

39 minutes ago, lazyred said:

You said should people didn't celebrate the original attack, I've just shown you evidence they did. If you want more scroll back through the Green and Pleasent thread on Reddit. I've also shown how they are now trying to minimise the extent of the Hamase attacks. Novara have influence among the left.

Ahh okay. Can you answer my question, please?

[cellar]

26 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What’s indefensible about waiting for evidence? Many on the left have been keen to take this line when it suits, yet mysteriously changed course when it doesn’t. 
 

What’s indefensible about admitting when you get things wrong? I think it’s an admirable quality and we all do it. I suspect Corbyn would never retract because the reality is he comes from the position Palestine is always right and Israel always wrong, it will take a more nuanced view to sort out this shitshow if possible.

The indefensible position is trying to justify an apartheid state, delivered by Israel, under the guise of being against a terrorist organisation.

Discuss the points at hand. How do you feel about the calorie control that Israel imposed on Palestine?

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Bad stuff. Besides Ash Sarkar, I never had much time for novara. Especially Michael Walker who I think at best just regurgitates leftist positions that he doesnt properly understand, and at worst does stuff like that.

Its unfortunate that he has the platform he and others like him have the platform they do so that those who wish to turn tragedies like this into another exercise at kicking the left, instead of just expressing their grief at the tragedy, or thinking about what is the best way to precent further tragedy, have all the ammunition they need.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Hamas committed war crimes when they went into Israel. Because the normal thing to do should be to believe the survivors. And then because no matter what the order was, ultimately its a group of radicalised young men who have grown up despising and dehumanising their targets in their mind, being sent to carry those orders out. So to think they just went in and killed combatants and took hostages is be deliberately ignorant to the grim logic of war.

As I’ve mentioned before, the attribution of the hospital strike specifically doesnt matter. I mean, its still not clear. If you want to believe the IDF and the Associated Press’ analysis of video clips then you will do, if you want to believe the other side’s evidence, netanyahu’s aide’s early tweet and the UoL research group’s analysis, you will do. Neither is objective, neither is a thorough independent report based on info from the ground. Thats not possible.

But there are a lot of people who have evidently become so braindead by knee jerking to ’Miss! Miss! the Left said/did this’, that thats their reaction to all this sh*t instead of just sparing a thought for the poor f**king people, especially the kids, on both sides of the conflict, who are suffering. So much for empathy- that was so last century.

I disagree with you a lot...but kudos for that post.

I just feel like people really need to step back and look at the bigger picture...in US and Europe, but also Iran and Qatar. This needs resolving, the killing needs to stop. Whole thing is too sad.

[Crazyfool01]

10 minutes ago, cellar said:

Insinuating that people are racists is, though

Especially where in my case my posts are balanced and Ozanne is well aware of my family and my attempts to take in refugees . 

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I

 

Pretty grim , helps no one least of all the family’s involved 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Especially where in my case my posts are balanced and Ozanne is well aware of my family and my attempts to take in refugees . 

ok I love a pile on and all that...but didn't cellar say I supported Israeli apartheid because I said nothing excused what Hamas did. There's so much high and mighty self righteousness on this thread sometimes...

Edited October 22, 2023 by steviewevie

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

ok it's I love a pile on and all that...but didn't cellar say I supported Israeli apartheid because I said nothing excused what Hamas did. There's so much high and mighty self righteousness on this thread sometimes...

I’m talking for me . I’ve not accused anyone of racism 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Crazyfool01

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, cellar said:

The indefensible position is trying to justify an apartheid state, delivered by Israel, under the guise of being against a terrorist organisation.

Discuss the points at hand. How do you feel about the calorie control that Israel imposed on Palestine?

if is Israel is an apartheid state its very sh*t at it, allowing Arabs to live amongst Jews, letting them vote, and much more -  so either you don't know about Israel or you didn't know about south Africa? which is it????

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Pretty grim , helps no one least of all the family’s involved 

it might wise up a few idiots and lower tensions as a consequence.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

if is Israel is an apartheid state its very sh*t at it, allowing Arabs to live amongst Jews, letting them vote, and much more -  so either you don't know about Israel or you didn't know about south Africa? which is it????

the thing with Israel is they want a majority Jewish population, otherwise that defeats the whole point. Obviously this should go against any liberal's viewpoint...but I guess Jews had a specific case, their persecution everywhere culminating in the holocaust, unless that's fake news too.

Edited October 22, 2023 by steviewevie

[Crazyfool01]

8 minutes ago, Neil said:

it might wise up a few idiots and lower tensions as a consequence.

Not sure how that would lower tensions . Might stop some misinformation but I doubt that tbh 

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Obviously this should go against any liberal's viewpoint...

not necessarily, can rationalise their need to control their own destiny. and also recognise that the Palestinians have chosen badly when they've had choices for their own destiny.

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

I’m talking for me . I’ve not accused anyone of racism 

yeah not talking about you...I've had cellar on ignore since a few weeks ago but see him/her/it in your posts and felt the need to respond