news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

If this carries on and US continues to support Israel I reckon this will damage Biden's chances in next year's election.

[lost]

Doesn't the hamas charter literally say international peace proposals are a waste of time?

[steviewevie]

So what, the world should just stand back and let Israel wipe out Gaza because Hamas are bad and can't be trusted? There are already nearly 20k dead now, christ knows how many of them are kids, and now they are estimating 1.8 million are displaced and the place is full of disease and people are close to starvation. How far does it need to go before people stop saying yeah but Hamas and realise what the f**k is actually happening.

Hamas did abide by a ceasefire previously, and they can again. None of this is easy, but just saying either side can't be trusted gets you nowhere. With UN security council, which included Arab countries, which included Russia, China and US...this would have definitely carried more weight than what was being applied before. Yes some in Hamas want to destroy Israel, but they also accepted a two state solution a few years ago, so I expect there are different factions who want different things. And current Israel government has some in it who call Palestinians animals and wants to destroy Palestine and for Israel to occupy the lot, so courses for horses.

If this was Xi or Putin cutting off and then wiping out cities full of innocent people because there were terrorists there would we be ok with that?

[Guest]

No one is saying we should 'stand back...' people are raising the valid point that a terrorist organisation can't be trusted and have broken these ceasefires before even very recently. So the normal mechanisms for bringing about a cessation of fighting probably aren't going to work here. A ceasefire was brought about by negotiations before without any UN motion so it can be done before and if it does then hopefully Hamas won't break it like they did before.

I don't know why some people are giving a terrorist organisation so much leeway, it wouldn't happen anywhere else.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

No one is saying we should 'stand back...' people are raising the valid point that a terrorist organisation can't be trusted and have broken these ceasefires before even very recently. So the normal mechanisms for bringing about a cessation of fighting probably aren't going to work here. A ceasefire was brought about by negotiations before without any UN motion so it can be done before and if it does then hopefully Hamas won't break it like they did before.

I don't know why some people are giving a terrorist organisation so much leeway, it wouldn't happen anywhere else.

it's not about leeway, but Israel aren't going to be able to take out Hamas like this without wiping out Gaza...and meanwhile this will just help Hamas recruit many more fighters in the future. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

it's not about leeway, but Israel aren't going to be able to take out Hamas like this without wiping out Gaza...and meanwhile this will just help Hamas recruit many more fighters in the future. 

I don’t mean to be rude but there does seem, to me, to be some leeway given to Hamas that wouldn’t be given to other terrorist organisations. Why is the pressure all on Israel when Hamas started this on Oct 7th and then broke the ceasefire last month?

[Neil]

5 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Surely US patience with Israel can't last much longer. soon. 

another 80 years at least. 😛 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t mean to be rude but there does seem, to me, to be some leeway given to Hamas that wouldn’t be given to other terrorist organisations. Why is the pressure all on Israel when Hamas started this on Oct 7th and then broke the ceasefire last month?

everyone recognises the Palestinian cause as a just one. 🙂 

[Crazyfool01]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t mean to be rude but there does seem, to me, to be some leeway given to Hamas that wouldn’t be given to other terrorist organisations. Why is the pressure all on Israel when Hamas started this on Oct 7th and then broke the ceasefire last month?

IRA ? you do know there were negotiations with them whilst they were still engaged in terrorism ? much as its uncomfortable it needs to be done and start somewhere as the horrible situation will never end , as for the started it bit ? is oct 7th the start ? or is it your defined start ? mass killing and atrocities from both sides needs to stop and that is a starting point for the future , having a UN resolution gives it a bit more oomph . 

[lost]

41 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

If this was Xi or Putin cutting off and then wiping out cities full of innocent people because there were terrorists there would we be ok with that?

I can't really see any equivlent comparision. The issue here is the Dome of the Rock where apparently Mohammed asended to heaven is built on top of the holiest site in Judaesium. Thats the reason there is no solution.

You have two sides who believe if they die defending that bit of land they will get a reward in the afterlife from their God.

Even if by some miracle they could negotiate a peace deal with Hamas then a theocracy like Iran would simily start funding a different group who were willing to fight a holy war against Israel.

If the world was getting less religous we may get a solution but as far as I can see its getting more religious

Edited December 9, 2023 by lost

[Guest]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

IRA ? you do know there were negotiations with them whilst they were still engaged in terrorism ? much as its uncomfortable it needs to be done and start somewhere as the horrible situation will never end , as for the started it bit ? is oct 7th the start ? or is it your defined start ? mass killing and atrocities from both sides needs to stop and that is a starting point for the future , having a UN resolution gives it a bit more oomph . 

Oct 7th is when the terrorist attack occurred which kicked off this stage of fighting.

As I've pointed out there have been negotiations which brought about a pause in the fighting and that was before any UN motion, so if they could do that before without one why is it needed now?

Hamas need to stop breaking ceasefires if they did that then would be a chance for peace.

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t mean to be rude but there does seem, to me, to be some leeway given to Hamas that wouldn’t be given to other terrorist organisations. Why is the pressure all on Israel when Hamas started this on Oct 7th and then broke the ceasefire last month?

Yes they are bad, but you think Israel's response is proportionate? The pressure is on Israel as apparently they are a sovereign state and a Western ally. Ideally Hamas would surrender, but doesn't look like that will happen. I wonder how many Palestinian kids will die or lose their parents today?

[Guest]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Yes they are bad, but you think Israel's response is proportionate? The pressure is on Israel as apparently they are a sovereign state and a Western ally. Ideally Hamas would surrender, but doesn't look like that will happen. I wonder how many Palestinian kids will die or lose their parents today?

So do you want Israel to just stand down and accept any potential attacks by Hamas? Because Hamas have said they will attack again so do Israel just accept it and if so why is it only Israel that have to accept these attacks?

[steviewevie]

It's over 2 months since that attack. I think Israel have done enough now.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Ozanne said:

So do you want Israel to just stand down and accept any potential attacks by Hamas? Because Hamas have said they will attack again so do Israel just accept it and if so why is it only Israel that have to accept these attacks?

That would need to follow a ceasefire. Both sides need security.

[Guest]

Just now, steviewevie said:

That would need to follow a ceasefire. Both sides need security.

Israel did that then Hamas broke the ceasefire, so do you expect Israel to just accept being attacked? What should they do if they get attacked again?

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Oct 7th is when the terrorist attack occurred which kicked off this stage of fighting.

As I've pointed out there have been negotiations which brought about a pause in the fighting and that was before any UN motion, so if they could do that before without one why is it needed now?

Hamas need to stop breaking ceasefires if they did that then would be a chance for peace.

the breaking of the ceasefires isnt absolutely clear as has been pointed out by Stevie . I couldn't 100% declare one side or the other broke it because of the misinformation given out by both sides , for a supposed govt source  the IDS is more than doing its fair share of this , they wouldn't need to if they were telling the truth but its there for all to see , and yes absolutely Hamas also doing this but that would be expected from them I guess 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Ozanne said:

Israel did that then Hamas broke the ceasefire, so do you expect Israel to just accept being attacked? What should they do if they get attacked again?

were you there ? or who's word are you taking for this ? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

the breaking of the ceasefires isnt absolutely clear as has been pointed out by Stevie . I couldn't 100% declare one side or the other broke it because of the misinformation given out by both sides , for a supposed govt source  the IDS is more than doing its fair share of this , they wouldn't need to if they were telling the truth but its there for all to see , and yes absolutely Hamas also doing this but that would be expected from them I guess 

How come you are back posting here again? I thought you had stopped.

Anyway, there was a ceasefire that had been agreed without any UN motion so if they can do that before then they don't really need one.

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

were you there ? or who's word are you taking for this ? 

I tend to believe sovereign States/reported media over terrorist organisations. 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Ozanne said:

How come you are back posting here again? I thought you had stopped.

Anyway, there was a ceasefire that had been agreed without any UN motion so if they can do that before then they don't really need one.

I tend to believe sovereign States/reported media over terrorist organisations. 

and the misinformation of the IDF ? sorry fella you dont dictate to me wether I choose to post or not 

[Guest]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

and the misinformation of the IDF ? sorry fella you dont dictate to me wether I choose to post or not 

ha I didn't tell you what to do, I asked why you are posting here again as you made a deal of telling us you were done.

I make a point of not trusting terrorist organisations, which is probably a wise view point to take for anyone.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

ha I didn't tell you what to do, I asked why you are posting here again as you made a deal of telling us you were done.

I make a point of not trusting terrorist organisations, which is probably a wise view point to take for anyone.

I trust neither .... 

[Guest]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

I trust neither .... 

If you say so.

[Guest]

Does anyone really think that if Hamas hadn't broken the ceasefire (assuming they actually did), there wouldn't still be fighting now? Israel want to finish the job regardless. The ceasefire served a useful purpose for them but anyone who believes it would have lead to a longer cessation of violence is living in a dream world. 

I saw a representative of the Israeli government say on the news last week that they regard Gaza of part of Israel. I think this is how it's all going to end.

Oh, and I can't see the difference between shooting babies in the head and blowing them to bits with high explosives to be honest. There's no moral high ground there.

[Neil]

i once had an address that was "Blatchford hall" sounds pretty posh -  for £65k could have a title to go with it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/09/manor-lord-walthamstow-east-london-auctioning-feudal-title