news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Neil said:

Starmer us sticking the boot in cos those of your mind would rather have a tory Govt than Starmer as pm.

Starmer does want to win. 

The only way Labour can enact any level of decent change is to first of all win power and as you say Starmer gets that.

[mattiloy]

If Labour gets in by stuffing their candidate lists full of right wingers and courting the votes of right wingers by committing to austerity, being anti trans, gps tagging refugees, privatising the NHS, chastising striking workers, getting brexit done and warmongering - how are they going to get away with then pursuing a progressive policy agenda in government? The support isn’t there for it in the party, the mandate isn’t there for it from the public.

It will be a right wing party doing right wing things and presumably still managing to blame reds under the bed when it all goes wrong - emperor Keiro fiddling whilst Rome burns.

[steviewevie]

8 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The Corbyn business is just a convenient soap opera to distract from the fact that the policies of the liberal hegemony have caused steady decline in the west for over a decade and are woefully inadequate to meet the challenges ahead.

Lashing out at Corbyn, sticking the boot into the left for the great crime of trying to change things for the better- the whole circus of it only reveals the insecurity of Starmer and liberalism more broadly.

or maybe they are just trying to win the next election.

[steviewevie]

anyway...if Corbs does stand as an independent what does Momentum do? What do his allies who are still MPs do? Could very much engulf Labour with the usual divisions and fuck up their electoral prospects.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

If Labour gets in by stuffing their candidate lists full of right wingers and courting the votes of right wingers by committing to austerity, being anti trans, gps tagging refugees, privatising the NHS, chastising striking workers, getting brexit done and warmongering - how are they going to get away with then pursuing a progressive policy agenda in government? The support isn’t there for it in the party, the mandate isn’t there for it from the public.

It will be a right wing party doing right wing things and presumably still managing to blame reds under the bed when it all goes wrong - emperor Keiro fiddling whilst Rome burns.

I know you want the tories in again, but you want an extreme programme from them. 

[Neil]

26 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

anyway...if Corbs does stand as an independent what does Momentum do? What do his allies who are still MPs do? Could very much engulf Labour with the usual divisions and fuck up their electoral prospects.

Momentum backs him cos they want a tory Govt like mattiloy does. 

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Neil said:

Momentum backs him cos they want a tory Govt like mattiloy does. 

I mean....they don't...they just don't like the direction labour is going in. The left had control of the party, but have now lost it.

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean....they don't...they just don't like the direction labour is going in. The left had control of the party, but have now lost it.

If they can't get a party of the like minded on side how well will they get on running the country. They won't get that far will be too busy with their coke habits. 

[Crazyfool01]

I do have fears over the way the nhs would go under a Labour govt and think that them going strongly against privatisation is a vote winner …. But sadly that route isn’t what they seem to be taking @Ozanne @steviewevie do you not fear for the nhs under Labour and Starmer ? 

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

I do have fears over the way the nhs would go under a Labour govt and think that them going strongly against privatisation is a vote winner …. But sadly that route isn’t what they seem to be taking @Ozanne @steviewevie do you not fear for the nhs under Labour and Starmer ? 

err...maybe...I don't know, I don't think Labour are going to privatise the NHS for a start, but they probably have more room to reform it than the tories do, more trusted etc. The NHS is a huge expenditure and is both fantastic and  kind of fucked, it needs a whole lot more money I guess, so that would mean higher taxes, but also could probably do with being better managed, and maybe some reforms whatever that means. If they use private sector to make work better and get better value for money than I am not necessarily against that...they already do this anyway. If they actually have private companies running hospitals or whatever, then that's not good...but going forward stuff needs to happen..aging population and all that.

[Crazyfool01]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

err...maybe...I don't know, I don't think Labour are going to privatise the NHS for a start, but they probably have more room to reform it than the tories do, more trusted etc. The NHS is a huge expenditure and is both fantastic and  kind of fucked, it needs a whole lot more money I guess, so that would mean higher taxes, but also could probably do with being better managed, and maybe some reforms whatever that means. If they use private sector to make work better and get better value for money than I am not necessarily against that...they already do this anyway. If they actually have private companies running hospitals or whatever, then that's not good...but going forward stuff needs to happen..aging population and all that.

The route of creeping privatisation and slow break up of the nhs is my biggest concern electorally … I’m happy to pay higher taxes for a working nhs and I’m sure many others would be too if this were explained clearly …. Just need to look at the state of dentistry now to see that creep is never a good thing . I sat in my dentist waiting room last week and they told me they weren’t taking on new patients ( which I knew anyway ) and then they took a phone call and took on a patient privately …. Just utter madness . All these small steps just lead to a general collapse in a few years . 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

The route of creeping privatisation and slow break up of the nhs is my biggest concern electorally … I’m happy to pay higher taxes for a working nhs and I’m sure many others would be too if this were explained clearly …. Just need to look at the state of dentistry now to see that creep is never a good thing . I sat in my dentist waiting room last week and they told me they weren’t taking on new patients ( which I knew anyway ) and then they took a phone call and took on a patient privately …. Just utter madness . All these small steps just lead to a general collapse in a few years . 

yeah, that is shit...and you say about higher taxes and people being happy to pay more for a better health service...I am not that sure, everyone wants a better health service but would probably rather someone else pay the tax, it's why windfall taxes or whatever are popular...but further funds for NHS needs to be constant...tories always batter labour for being the party of high tax. May tried to bring in a new tax to pay for social care, and labour battered them for it and she had to do a quick uturn which meant paying for social care got deferred again. Johnson's govt increased NI to pay for NHS/social care...and got battered and that has since been uturned.

[steviewevie]

and my kid was on a 2 year waiting list for a referral...but that got fast tracked when they outsourced to a private service...so at moment if it works to bring those waiting lists down I am not against it.

Edited February 16, 2023 by steviewevie

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

so at moment if it works to bring those waiting lists down I am not against it.

it works its what blair did to bring waiting lists down.

im off in a bit for my free medical treatment, if i offer money it gets refused.

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

or maybe they are just trying to win the next election.

The decision not to let Corbyn run probably (nationwide) gains more votes than it loses. Letting him run just means dealing with all the crap they are trying to move on from. He may well win as an independent, but that’s not going to really impact on when he supports labour and when he doesn’t.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I mean....they don't...they just don't like the direction labour is going in. The left had control of the party, but have now lost it.

I think it’s more they would prefer being in control of the opposition rather than support a conservative government, but ultimately they mean the same. I think to some it’s easier screaming from the sidelines and never having to compromise.

[Crazyfool01]

26 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

and my kid was on a 2 hour waiting list for a referral...but that got fast tracked when they outsourced to a private service...so at moment if it works to bring those waiting lists down I am not against it.

But that money if put into nhs services and not contracted to private company’s would potentially be cheaper … the issue I guess is that the pay disparity makes the services available privately and not via the nhs as people have left for better pay and conditions in the private sector … all a bit of a roundabout 

[Guest]

I’m not worried about the NHS under a Labour government at all, I am worried about the NHS under the Tories who have been ruining it for the last 13 years. 

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

when he supports labour

based on his historical voting record he does his own thing.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

I’m not worried about the NHS under a Labour government at all, I am worried about the NHS under the Tories who have been ruining it for the last 13 years. 

Not at all ? Really ? Ok so it might be a slower route to privatisation and the tories have clearly done significant damage and a large chunk is down to them … Labour is definately the better option in a 2 party system … but under Labour I’m still concerned about that route as I believe the sell off started under Blair … and so far as far as I’m aware starmer hasn’t said that it won’t continue . It is possible to have concerns and still think Labour the slightly less bad option 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

But that money if put into nhs services and not contracted to private company’s would potentially be cheaper … the issue I guess is that the pay disparity makes the services available privately and not via the nhs as people have left for better pay and conditions in the private sector … all a bit of a roundabout 

well yeah...I just mean as a short term fix. Even with a sudden influx of cash it would still take years to resolve.

[Neil]

i start my work next week for a private company (a charity) that's contracted to do work for the NHS, it does post-hospital support, and hopefully avoids people having to go thru the hospital system for a second time. I'm really looking forwards to helping out as they've helped me so much. its a valuable service, recognised as the best in the country by the NHS.

the downside is that its the other side of the city, and a £25 taxi ride away, i can't use the bus cos  with just one hand to propel it with i can't get to the bus stop as i can't get my wheelchair up the sloping roads to the bus stop

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, steviewevie said:

well yeah...I just mean as a short term fix. Even with a sudden influx of cash it would still take years to resolve.

Yeah of course … staff training and better pay and retention needs to be top of the list 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

well yeah...I just mean as a short term fix. Even with a sudden influx of cash it would still take years to resolve.

its not the nhs which needs funding its the social care part provided by local councils- if that gets sorted then patients start to flow thru the hospitals much better. also, wages so staff aren't tempted to leave for better pay.

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Neil said:

i start my work next week for a private company (a charity) that's contracted to do work for the NHS, it does post-hospital support, and hopefully avoids people having to go thru the hospital system for a second time. I'm really looking forwards to helping out as they've helped me so much. its a valuable service, recognised as the best in the country by the NHS.

the downside is that its the other side of the city, and a £25 taxi ride away, i can't use the bus cos  with just one hand to propel it with i can't get to the bus stop as i can't get my wheelchair up the sloping roads to the bus stop

Great stuff … but again that funding is coming from somewhere ? The charitable sector is doing an amazing job and lots of heavy lifting for govt … I’m amazed air ambulances are funded by charities lifeboats too …