news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Not at all ? Really ? Ok so it might be a slower route to privatisation and the tories have clearly done significant damage and a large chunk is down to them … Labour is definately the better option in a 2 party system … but under Labour I’m still concerned about that route as I believe the sell off started under Blair … and so far as far as I’m aware starmer hasn’t said that it won’t continue . It is possible to have concerns and still think Labour the slightly less bad option 

The NHS is massive with ever increasing demands. Current govt has increased spending last few budgets, but still needs more and more and more. Maybe we do need to have that conservation, what we expect from it, and how much it will cost us all in terms of tax. It isn't the only service that is crying out for cash, welfare, transport, policing etc etc...

[Neil]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

Great stuff … but again that funding is coming from somewhere ? The charitable sector is doing an amazing job and lots of heavy lifting for govt … I’m amazed air ambulances are funded by charities lifeboats too …

the funding is coming from nhs funds, it would cost the nhs a lot more to provide the same services, as they would be paying staff and not relying on volunteers.

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, steviewevie said:

The NHS is massive with ever increasing demands. Current govt has increased spending last few budgets, but still needs more and more and more. Maybe we do need to have that conservation, what we expect from it, and how much it will cost us all in terms of tax. It isn't the only service that is crying out for cash, welfare, transport, policing etc etc...

Current govt is also paying for some of its nhs covid costs / write offs / dodgy dealings amongst that extra funding and paying for the higher costs of private treatment … so it’s not quite all extra funding 

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

the higher costs of private treatment

its not necessarily that  because its fixed price treatment, and much easier to measure the cost-per-operation, than within the NHS.

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, Neil said:

its not necessarily that  because its fixed price treatment, and much easier to measure the cost-per-operation, than within the NHS.

Surely it is because they have higher costs in terms of staffing and shareholders to satisfy 

[mattiloy]

Privatisation basically allows the govt to outsource current spending.

Short term outcomes improve as private funding gills in the gaps without government borrowing or increasing taxes to spend which is nice for the poll numbers of the governing party.

The trouble is that in the medium term, the cost of privatisation becomes greater than the cost of borrowing or taxing to spend. The government can borrow cheaper than the private sector so any funding financed by debt is more expensive for the private sector, then private companies pay dividends, so any funding financed by equity is dearer.  + the focus is on quality rather than profit so the service is worse.

 

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

You will probably find private has lower costs as the can't waste like the NHS can

As somebody who has only worked in the private sector, the amount of money spaffed on white elephant projects/strategies, parties, bogus jobs and marketing (not needed if you’re a state monopoly), is wild. Its claptrap that the private sector is more cost efficient than the public sector.

Edited February 16, 2023 by mattiloy

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Surely it is because they have higher costs in terms of staffing and shareholders to satisfy 

yep, but nhs treatment is a bit of a bottomless pit of services, where a patient ends up a forever patient, making use of services.

[lost]

Aren't final salary pensions a massive cost for the public sector has vs private? Especially versus new and upcoming companies that didn't exist when we had them in the private sector. I know BT are in a mess due to their pension liabilities.

I think I read 25 - 30% of council tax goes on pensions for ex-workers and its only going to get worse with an aging population.

Edited February 16, 2023 by lost

[Neil]

Just now, lost said:

Aren't final salary pensions a massive cost the public sector has vs private?

 they're user contributed, so in theory, not a cost

and final salary pensions tend to not be available to new staff.

[mattiloy]

Its kicking off!

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, lost said:

I think I read 25 - 30% of council tax goes on pensions

can't be true, my missus has a council job & final salary pension, and will only get what she's put in.

[lost]

Just now, Neil said:

 they're user contributed, so in theory, not a cost

and final salary pensions tend to not be available to new staff.

Really I just googled it and it says defined benefit pension schemes still exist in the public sector.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Its kicking off!

 

didn't see abbot challenging corbyn.

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, lost said:

Really I just googled it and it says defined benefit pension schemes still exist in the public sector.

yeah, they'll exist until add the existing staff have retired and died. Positions which used to get final salary pensions don't get those anymore.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

You clearly don't understand pensions 

i worded that badly and i do understand them, most are based on user contributions, plus any growth from investments.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Neil

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

i worded that badly and i do understand them, most are based on user contributions, plus any growth from investments.

User contributions are usually matched by employer contributions up to a percentage as well, so some does come from employers.

[Neil]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

User contributions are usually matched by employer contributions up to a percentage as well, so some does come from employers.

yep, and some from the govt cos its tax free.

[lost]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

i worded that badly and i do understand them, most are based on user contributions, plus any growth from investments.

You've got two types money purchase and defined benefit. Money purchase is you put money in and at the end buy an annuity that hopefully provides a good income but is based on how your investment do. Defined benefit guarantees an income so any short fall in what you've put in has to be made up elsewhere. 

Defined benefit used to exist in the private sector but phased out for being unsustainable due to demographics. In fact the reason pension funds blew up under Truss was because they were doing riskier and risker shit to try to meet those commitments.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, lost said:

Defined benefit guarantees an income so any short fall in what you've put in has to be made up elsewhere. 

yeah, i'm aware, which is why i responded as i did above. they're not giving away free money, if they were my missus would be retired already.

[fraybentos1]

DB pensions you get out way more than you put in. Huge difference between the two types of pension.

[Neil]

Just now, fraybentos1 said:

DB pensions you get out way more than you put in.

yep, but they're not really available anymore.

[fraybentos1]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

yep, but they're not really available anymore.

Yes they are. Defined Benefit is still the standard for teachers, civil servants, nurses etc etc. I have one and I’m in my 20s

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Yes they are. Defined Benefit is still the standard for teachers, civil servants, nurses etc etc. I have one and I’m in my 20s

used to exist for many of the council statutory roles, but doesn't anymore. which is causing job blocking within councils, so they end up giving redundancy instead.

[Neil]

and then there's the windall of pension funds when a beneficiary dies early in their retirement.

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

used to exist for many of the council statutory roles, but doesn't anymore. which is causing job blocking within councils, so they end up giving redundancy instead.

i'm not saying they're not available, just that they're not as widespread now as they used to be.