news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Jones isn't the only commentator going on about this...not necessairly about Corbyn, but kicking out the left...

Labour must be a broad church. Starmer’s purge of the left puts his future government in peril | Neal Lawson | The Guardian

Starmer is right to stop Corbyn standing for Labour at the next election – but he mustn’t purge dissent | Polly Toynbee | The Guardian

This senseless lawsuit could bankrupt the Labour party and let the Tories win again | George Monbiot | The Guardian

The Guardian view on Labour and antisemitism: two cheers for Keir Starmer | Editorial | The Guardian

Starmer isn’t kicking the left out. He’s said they can leave if they want too. 

[steviewevie]

I saw that Jones suggested that Corbyn could stand for the Greens...I wonder if they would have him?...could gain them another MP.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

I see Diane Abbott has confirmed that jezza wanted brexit which many of us always knew but his fanclub refused to recognise. 

man, that is so yesterday (or was it wednesday).

Edited February 17, 2023 by steviewevie

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

man, that is so yesterday (or was it wednesday).

I missed that, tho it's not news to me I could always see corbyn faults. 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Starmer isn’t kicking the left out. He’s said they can leave if they want too. 

yeah, kind of aggressively, not much room for dialogue there, like it or lump it....and then there's the whole selection process for parliamentary candidates thing.

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

from what I have read it goes far further than what happened under Corbyn.

Yeah, so he lied. I mean I understand why...it won him the election. And maybe it will win him the general election too. But, a lie is a lie, and often it comes back to bite you in the bum. (and I quite like RLB too).

Where have you read that? I have read instances of both sides promoting their corn/blocking others. I just think it’s what happens when you control power. You ultimately want MPs who will be loyal.

The lie never bothered me, as I always saw it for what it was. I don’t want labour to be the most honest protest party, I want them in power making things better for people.

I am apathetic about RLB as a person but she would have been a terrible choice as labour leader. Do you think things would be better for labour if everyone was honest and she had become leader. Do you think the party would be more united and be in a better place to win an election?

 

[steviewevie]

 

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Where have you read that? I have read instances of both sides promoting their corn/blocking others. I just think it’s what happens when you control power. You ultimately want MPs who will be loyal.

 

If Labour’s leadership is hobbling internal candidates, is it fit to run a democracy? | Owen Jones | The Guardian

🙂

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I am apathetic about RLB as a person but she would have been a terrible choice as labour leader. Do you think things would be better for labour if everyone was honest and she had become leader. Do you think the party would be more united and be in a better place to win an election?

don't know...totally hypothetical. But, no probably not, she was too close to Corbyn. But I thought she was a good speaker, and I don't know, just liked her.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Where have you read that? I have read instances of both sides promoting their corn/blocking others. I just think it’s what happens when you control power. You ultimately want MPs who will be loyal.

I read it a few places...guardian, new statesman, labour list etc. But also Michael Crick was doing lots on this...and he said it has always happened, but has been far more strict and draconian recently in labour.

Starmer's ruthless attack on the Left - UnHerd

[lost]

Corbyn's faction was stating entryism definitely wasn't happening whilst momentum was being used to block vote their people into power, these people ended up getting labour stuck on the same list as the BNP. For me Starmer is completely justified in returning labour to its rightful owners.

The post war labour government was fundamental in the formation of Nato, continuing the development of the Uk's first nuclear deterrent and assisting in the formation of Israel on land controlled by the British empire in 1948. That's the real labour party. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by lost

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

don't know...totally hypothetical. But, no probably not, she was too close to Corbyn. But I thought she was a good speaker, and I don't know, just liked her.

It’s funny how 2 people can see things so differently, I though she was a terrible speaker!

[steviewevie]

To be clear, I am not a corbynite (more a mcdonnellite)...I liked a lot of his policies, but thought he was weak on antisemitism and brexit, probably because in his heart he wasn't bothered about them, and I don't know, just found him a bit annoying. But, the bloke has been labour MP for a fucking long time, was leader...and I don't know if the strategy of being tough on him is as sound as some think.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I read it a few places...guardian, new statesman, labour list etc. But also Michael Crick was doing lots on this...and he said it has always happened, but has been far more strict and draconian recently in labour.

Starmer's ruthless attack on the Left - UnHerd

"But while organising the selection process may help avoid internal rows within a Starmer government, it could still weaken the party and any government in the long run. The shared fate of the Johnson and Truss regimes show the perils of confining your ministerial team to a narrow range of loyalists. By contrast, the successful Labour administrations of Attlee, Wilson and even Blair all had significant representation from the Left — Nye Bevan, Dick Crossman, Barbara Castle, Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Claire Short and John Prescott, to name a few.

There’s a more worrying issue too. What does this tell us about how a Starmer government will handle its critics? Labour’s selection processes appear to be deeply unjust, open to abuse, and verge on the corrupt. Left-wingers, passionate trades unionists, troublemakers and mavericks need not apply. The plan seems to be to wipe out the Left completely, to find the flimsiest excuse to block anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. It is not inconceivable that if Angela Rayner, John Prescott, Margaret Beckett, or Neil Kinnock now applied to be a candidate, they would be blocked at the first hurdle by an NEC panel.

Of course, bigwigs in all parties have long tried to fix certain parliamentary selections, and the Labour high command has probably interfered more than most. The Corbynites were ruthless in purging their opponents, often on seemingly trumped-up charges, but their efforts were never on this scale. The Starmer team looks fixated on achieving total control, intent on stamping out anything that might embarrass the party. Their tactics go way beyond the dark arts of Peter Mandelson, Alastair Campbell and New Labour, though it’s not clear how much Starmer knows about how the selection system is being rigged, and whether he — a former human rights lawyer — turns a blind eye to the abuses."

[DeanoL]

13 minutes ago, lost said:

Corbyn's faction was stating entryism definitely wasn't happening whilst momentum was being used to block vote their people into power, these people ended up getting labour stuck on the same list as the BNP. For me Starmer is completely justified in returning labour to its rightful owners.

I'm not sure it really is entryism when the party democratically elects a very left wing leader and so then many very left wing people join the party because it's now in line with their politics? That's working as intended surely?

I don't believe that political parties have any "rightful owner" to start with.

[lost]

10 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I'm not sure it really is entryism when the party democratically elects a very left wing leader and so then many very left wing people join the party because it's now in line with their politics? That's working as intended surely?

Nope momentum was used as a vehicle to enforce a minority opinion on a major party. The problem is most people don't vote in these things so a very active minority can gain control and subvert the party by being instructed how to vote. The issue is obviously the minority opinion when offered to the general public resulted in the worst loss since the 1930's.

[steviewevie]

32 minutes ago, lost said:

The post war labour government was fundamental in the formation of Nato, continuing the development of the Uk's first nuclear deterrent and assisting in the formation of Israel on land controlled by the British empire in 1948. That's the real labour party. 

that was labour party at a particular time in history, after WW2 carnage, the holocaust, the end of the empire, and the start of a cold war against soviet union. 

[steviewevie]

DUP almost happy.

[Neil]

58 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Starmer isn’t kicking the left out. He’s said they can leave if they want too. 

He isn't kicking the left out he's kicking the idiots out 

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, lost said:

Nope momentum was used as a vehicle to enforce a minority opinion on a major party. The problem is most people don't vote in these things so a very active minority can gain control and subvert the party by being instructed how to vote. The issue is obviously the minority opinion when offered to the general public resulted in the worst loss since the 1930's.

2017 they did ok, no tory majority when people were predicting they'd get wiped out...but by 2019 brexit had fucked the labour vote, corbyn was the devil incarnate, and boris was bulshitting the country into submission.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

from what I have read it goes far further than what happened under Corbyn.

Yeah, so he lied. I mean I understand why...it won him the election. And maybe it will win him the general election too. But, a lie is a lie, and often it comes back to bite you in the bum. (and I quite like RLB too).

Starmer didn't say the things that Jones clsims, it's jones projecting what he'd have liked Starmer to have said 

[pink_triangle]

38 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

To be clear, I am not a corbynite (more a mcdonnellite)...I liked a lot of his policies, but thought he was weak on antisemitism and brexit, probably because in his heart he wasn't bothered about them, and I don't know, just found him a bit annoying. But, the bloke has been labour MP for a fucking long time, was leader...and I don't know if the strategy of being tough on him is as sound as some think.

Look at conservatives still linking Starmer with Corbyn. They are doing it as they think it wins them votes, I think it’s logical to do everything to break that link.

[lost]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

that was labour party at a particular time in history, after WW2 carnage, the holocaust, the end of the empire, and the start of a cold war against soviet union. 

Yes but there were other parties/publications at the time. The socialist labour party which published the socialist newspaper that evolved into the socialist worker. This publication Corbyn spent his career writing for and was broadly inline with his views. So we can see what views "his type" would of had then and it was well to the left of the labour party. Corbyn would of chosen the Warsaw pact over Nato. 

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Neil said:

Starmer didn't say the things that Jones clsims, it's jones projecting what he'd have liked Starmer to have said 

like what?

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Look at conservatives still linking Starmer with Corbyn. They are doing it as they think it wins them votes, I think it’s logical to do everything to break that link.

maybe...but could ignite an internal war in labour that puts voters off. We'll see. You're probably right, but I think it's risky.

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

like what?

READ THE ARTICLE FOR WHERE JONES THINKS STARMER LIED.