news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Do you honestly believe that labour don’t know it’s not more complicated than that, unfortunately we have an electorate who doesn’t want complex and to actually do anything about these issues you have to get in power first. I believe that labour will do more than conservatives in power and for that reason I’m willing to accept playing politics. I don’t want to feel morally superior in second place.

If you are Corbyn labour, greens, Lib Dem’s and happy to be in opposition you can say whatever you want. If you are Labour you need to try and build a coalition that can win power. I would love an electorate where everyone is like me, but don’t have the magic wand to make it that way.

So both sides say any old shit.

[steviewevie]

We will stop the boats, stop crime, make everyone wealthier, sort out the NHS. Promise.

[Guest]

Remember to reduce the debt too, that's vitally important, apparently. 

[steviewevie]

sorry, getting cynical in my old age.

[lost]

£2k a month for everyone in Scotland? I'll be surprised if this gets off the ground. I think the boats will be sailing out of the channel and up into the north sea.

 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, lost said:

£2k a month for everyone in Scotland? I'll be surprised if this gets off the ground. I think the boats will be sailing out of the channel and up into the north sea.

 

wow. Now that is radical.

[Guest]

From the headline is sounds like a decent idea, lets give everyone more money rather than just the elite few.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

37 minutes ago, lost said:

£2k a month for everyone in Scotland? I'll be surprised if this gets off the ground. I think the boats will be sailing out of the channel and up into the north sea.

 

Sounds an interesting figure but I would be more interested in the detail. I presume Universal Credit will be scrapped so people will pay for their own housing. Then you vector in no Council Tax reduction either. It could lead to some social mobility as people could afford to pay higher rents than uc would pay for though.

I am not sure on the 25k figure though. It does seem high and would it be taxable?

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

So both sides say any old shit.

So knowing that the conservatives will say anything to be elected. You want labour to be completely honest even if it costs them votes? What could possibly go wrong with that strategy?

The reality is most of the electorate don’t want to know detailed information about policy. They just want to know the basic direction of travel. Labour have a weakness in terms of crime and they need to try and correct that weakness. There is no election win without a tough on crime message. However in power hopefully they will take a wider view of things.

 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

So knowing that the conservatives will say anything to be elected. You want labour to be completely honest even if it costs them votes? What could possibly go wrong with that strategy?

The reality is most of the electorate don’t want to know detailed information about policy. They just want to know the basic direction of travel. Labour have a weakness in terms of crime and they need to try and correct that weakness. There is no election win without a tough on crime message. However in power hopefully they will take a wider view of things.

 

people become disillusioned, don't vote, labour don't win a 2nd term, tories back in power with Badenoch as PM.

[steviewevie]

What he says ⬇️

 

[pink_triangle]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

people become disillusioned, don't vote, labour don't win a 2nd term, tories back in power with Badenoch as PM.

Your strategy of being completely honest while conservatives tell the electorate what they want to hear will mean labour never win. They weren’t elected in 1997 with a radical message , they were elected with a pretty safe message. They then got in power and improved things and got voted back in 2 times. You can’t however prove yourself in power if you don’t get it in the first place.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Your strategy of being completely honest while conservatives tell the electorate what they want to hear will mean labour never win. They weren’t elected in 1997 with a radical message , they were elected with a pretty safe message. They then got in power and improved things and got voted back in 2 times. You can’t however prove yourself in power if you don’t get it in the first place.

ok...but look at the state of everything...it is shit...I'm not sure voters are going to buy anymore tory lies...they are ready for a change, they want some improvements...so labour can start from how they will improve things when it is still going to be difficult...instead of ridiculous promises like we're just going to lock them all up....because Starmer isn't exactly super popular now, and if things don't get better then people will look to something else...possibly from the right...Badenoch or Braverman.

(But I know where you're coming from.)

[steviewevie]

[pink_triangle]

25 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

What he says ⬇️

 

Of course the polls are closing, that was inevitable.  Anyone who thought labour would win by 20 points had unrealistic expectations. The worst thing they could do is panic.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Of course the polls are closing, that was inevitable.  Anyone who thought labour would win by 20 points had unrealistic expectations. The worst thing they could do is panic.

because we have been in this situation before...so starmer needs to up his game.

[pink_triangle]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok...but look at the state of everything...it is shit...I'm not sure voters are going to buy anymore tory lies...they are ready for a change, they want some improvements...so labour can start from how they will improve things when it is still going to be difficult...instead of ridiculous promises like we're just going to lock them all up....because Starmer isn't exactly super popular now, and if things don't get better then people will look to something else...possibly from the right...Badenoch or Braverman.

(But I know where you're coming from.)

I have had an interest in politics for about 30 years and that time has told me that the public will be taken in by lies. I think the best we can hope for is they are just fed up with Torys in general and want a change. It may not be the radical change you would like, but it’s a pragmatic compromise people can vote for. To think the electorate is suddenly all going to become massively politically engaged, read manifestos and want complex political discussion is in my view setting you up for failure.

Your right labour can say how they will make things better, they have to some extent now, but they aren’t going to produce a full policy platform now for the Torys to rip off. However there is a balance with what you can promise and what the electorate will vote for. If you want labour to go into an election talking about reducing sentences, reducing the amount going to prison, more focus instead on rehabilitation. It will be political suicide and quoted on conservative election material throughout the country. If you want action and not words then they need the tough on crime message and work on rehabilitation more in power.

[pink_triangle]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

because we have been in this situation before...so starmer needs to up his game.

Starmer is what he is. He isn’t particularly charismatic and is pretty much centre ground labour. I am not comvinced any other leader would be doing better, nor would a more radical platform be more popular.

I think the 1997 landslide had labour 12 percent ahead of the torys. I pretty much ignore the polls, there is no way they are doing as well as 1997.

 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I have had an interest in politics for about 30 years and that time has told me that the public will be taken in by lies. I think the best we can hope for is they are just fed up with Torys in general and want a change. It may not be the radical change you would like, but it’s a pragmatic compromise people can vote for. To think the electorate is suddenly all going to become massively politically engaged, read manifestos and want complex political discussion is in my view setting you up for failure.

Your right labour can say how they will make things better, they have to some extent now, but they aren’t going to produce a full policy platform now for the Torys to rip off. However there is a balance with what you can promise and what the electorate will vote for. If you want labour to go into an election talking about reducing sentences, reducing the amount going to prison, more focus instead on rehabilitation. It will be political suicide and quoted on conservative election material throughout the country. If you want action and not words then they need the tough on crime message and work on rehabilitation more in power.

ok...fair enough...but still...tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

But believe me I know where you're coming from, I know with our electoral system they have to say stuff that woke liberal metropolitan elite people like me don't like...I just worry.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok...fair enough...but still...tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.

But believe me I know where you're coming from, I know with our electoral system they have to say stuff that woke liberal metropolitan elite people like me don't like...I just worry.

Did they have much detail in 1997 or just vague catchphrase like education, education, education. Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. I honestly can’t remember.

[Guest]

No wonder Labour never win elections, you have people holding them up an extremely high level and as soon as they do anything even slightly against that they criticise the Party for days on end. Yet the Tories who will be doing much worse than Labour whilst actually ruining the country get off scot free.

If Labour have supporters like this they don't need enemies.

[steviewevie]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Did they have much detail in 1997 or just vague catchphrase like education, education, education. Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. I honestly can’t remember.

me neither. It was the 90s.

[steviewevie]

16 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

No wonder Labour never win elections, you have people holding them up an extremely high level and as soon as they do anything even slightly against that they criticise the Party for days on end. Yet the Tories who will be doing much worse than Labour whilst actually ruining the country get off scot free.

If Labour have supporters like this they don't need enemies.

normally I would agree...but that ad really fucked me off and I can't shake it off.

[steviewevie]

at the end of the day...the cost of living crisis, the strikes, the state of the nhs, and the state of the snp all point to a labour win.

But, this doesn't mean questions shouldn't be asked of starmer and labour.

[steviewevie]

for research I am going to rewatch

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p09wg9cm/blair-brown-the-new-labour-revolution