news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Jesus, I'm 22 pages in and he still hasn't stopped waffling about process...all of that stuff could have been put in an appendix. Don't KCs believe in an executive summary?

wow you're actually reading it. I can't read more than 280 characters these days.

[Guest]

Softie Sunak isn’t a good PM. 

[steviewevie]

but if you want to read something more enjoyable this is pretty good...

 

[Kurosagi]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

wow you're actually reading it. I can't read more than 280 characters these days.

It's actually an interesting contrast with the Johnson report. For example:

The DPM’s style is, in his own words, inquisitorial, direct, impatient and fastidious.
The DPM told me, and I accept, that he tends to prepare extensively for meetings, will
typically have read all of the key papers and identified questions in advance. He
explained that he does not wish to receive a recitation of papers which he has already
read. He will focus on the points of interest to him.

It's actually refreshing to know that a senior cabinet minister actually reads stuff and tries to understand it. I suppose the issue is whether he's one-eyed in terms of his interpretations for policy regarding the civil servants he's working with.

Anyway, I plough on...

[Kurosagi]

Funny:

I heard a good deal of evidence about the DPM’s use of physical gestures in
communication. At the most extreme, and which would have been unacceptable, this
was put as extending his hand directly out towards another person’s face with a view to
making them stop talking.

Talk to the hand brother. Yeah, that'd piss me off too.

[Kurosagi]

So the MoJ complaints seem to amount to a clash of styles, it doesn't appear that he was a vindictive arsehole or other types of nasty controlling type bullying behaviours, simply that he was very focused and expected everyone around him to do a top quality job. Seems like his problem there was 'chain of command' and not going through the civil servants' managers when he had complaints. Guess that could have been viewed as intimidating.

On to the DExEU complaints...

[Kurosagi]

DExEU was years ago and his first ministerial position:

I find that the DPM did not intend any adverse effect on others. Some of his conduct
was undoubtedly experienced as abrasive and difficult and that experience was to some
extent inevitable, particularly in the unusually tense and high-pressure work
environment of the DExEU Period. It appears to me that the DPM was so focused on
achieving his desired outcomes, in what he genuinely believed to be the public interest,
that there were occasions when he did not take into account, fully or at all, his likely
effect on some others.

Nobody called it bullying at the time. Again, seems to boil down to clash of working style.

FCDO next...

[Punksnotdead]

FFS - my local mp Alex Chalk has been made justice Secretary - he's a massive w*nkstain! 

[Kurosagi]

Okay, now we get to the juice:

However, as part of the process towards and implementation of this management choice
he acted in a way which was intimidating, in the sense of unreasonably and persistently
aggressive in the context of a workplace meeting. His conduct also involved an abuse
or misuse of power in a way that undermines or humiliates. In particular, he went
beyond what was reasonably necessary in order to give effect to his decision and
introduced a punitive element. His conduct was bound to be experienced as
undermining or humiliating by the affected individual, and it was so experienced. I
infer that the DPM must have been aware of this effect; at the very least, he ought
reasonably to have been so aware.

Yeah, he's being a dick now. Basically threatening staff he thinks are working against him and implying he was going to get them sacked. Boo hiss.

[Ryan1984]

We know how this is going, don’t we? Woke blob lefty snowflake civil servants can’t cope when the pressure is on and don’t like being asked difficult questions by a tough taskmaster etc.

Raab’s actions don’t seem too different to top-level Tories (and supermarket managers) I’ve worked for in the past.

[steviewevie]

Oliver Dowden is new deputy PM.

So that's ok.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

We know how this is going, don’t we? Woke blob lefty snowflake civil servants can’t cope when the pressure is on and don’t like being asked difficult questions by a tough taskmaster etc.

Raab’s actions don’t seem too different to top-level Tories (and supermarket managers) I’ve worked for in the past.

You've worked for top level tories?

[steviewevie]

I think work culture has changed...not acceptable to be shouty c**t boss anymore.

[Kurosagi]

5 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

We know how this is going, don’t we? Woke blob lefty snowflake civil servants can’t cope when the pressure is on and don’t like being asked difficult questions by a tough taskmaster etc.

Yep, that's basically the case specifically for the final section on the MoJ complaints that I'm on at the moment.

[Ryan1984]

Just now, steviewevie said:

You've worked for top level tories?

Well, one that went to uni with Hunt, Boris etc but found his calling in private equity.

[Ryan1984]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

I think work culture has changed...not acceptable to be shouty c**t boss anymore.

They want this back - goes hand in hand with the ‘Get back in the office you lazy c**ts’ mantra they love so much.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think work culture has changed...not acceptable to be shouty c**t boss anymore.

I once smacked a boss that poked me in the chest. 

[Neil]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

the problem is everyone is so bloody woke these days.

There's an interesting programme on radio four about the history of woke.

[Neil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001jc1l?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

[Kurosagi]

"abrasive", not "abusive" seems to be the theme.

So, all in all, not exactly a nourishing boss to work for and prone to losing his shit if you're not on top form, but I should imagine if you're on the same wavelength then he would be considered refreshing and productive compared to ministers who don't read stuff and aren't particularly bright.

I can understand why Sunak struggled with this from an internal management point of view and despite not liking Raab's politics I have a bit of sympathy, but his resignation letter could have been classier by not moaning about it. Raab basically needed some time off to do a 101 course in effective management, but the press were never going to let Sunak get away with that.

Conclusions start on page 44 and offer a pretty good overview if anyone's still interested.

[cellar]

@Kurosagi thanks for these summaries, i was going to try to wade through it myself, but now i don't really feel the need!

There is no place for behaviour when it amounts to being overly aggressive or humiliating, particularly when that is done by senior members of staff and in front of others.

A clash of styles is one thing, but I've been on the receiving end of a manager who had a very different style to me - everything was fine (as I was good at my job), until she made a pass at me that I rejected, and it suddenly turned to trying to make me look stupid in meetings, telling me that people were commenting about my behaviour towards her (I was very sure to act entirely appropriately at all times after she made the pass, as I suspected a reaction like that), and generally just trying to make me feel insignificant. I eventually went to HR and it got sorted - she kept her job, but treated me civily from then on, which was all I really wanted.

What I'm trying to say is - its very easy to have a different work style and not be a bully, and being a bully is a choice, whether that person believes it or not.

(And just saw your last post @Kurosagi - please do finish!)

[Kurosagi]

Had forgotten about the Afghan fuck up. Yep, what Freedman says. Burn him.

 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001jc1l?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

I'll give that a listen.

These guys did a podcast on it too which is pretty good... (hit load more and it comes up)

Origin Story (pod.link)

 

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

"abrasive", not "abusive" seems to be the theme.

So, all in all, not exactly a nourishing boss to work for and prone to losing his shit if you're not on top form, but I should imagine if you're on the same wavelength then he would be considered refreshing and productive compared to ministers who don't read stuff and aren't particularly bright.

I can understand why Sunak struggled with this from an internal management point of view and despite not liking Raab's politics I have a bit of sympathy, but his resignation letter could have been classier by not moaning about it. Raab basically needed some time off to do a 101 course in effective management, but the press were never going to let Sunak get away with that.

Conclusions start on page 44 and offer a pretty good overview if anyone's still interested.

yeah, he could have just said he'll take that on board and try and do better etc. Maybe even go on an anger management course!

[Kurosagi]

3 minutes ago, cellar said:

and it suddenly turned to trying to make me look stupid in meetings, telling me that people were commenting about my behaviour towards her

I think you nail it there, that's where it crosses the line and makes work a chore/hell because there's no coming back from that point and it's all such petty and unnecessary gaslighting.

And this:

5 minutes ago, cellar said:

What I'm trying to say is - its very easy to have a different work style and not be a bully, and being a bully is a choice, whether that person believes it or not.

Historically we're pretty poor at management as in the main we just promote people who are good at their jobs forgetting that effective management is actually a skill and not always innate. It's not that long ago that the only requirement for being a manager was being white, male and having a degree. It seemed ludicrous to me that just because some ex public school boy had done a degree (*any* subject) that he could simply waltz in to an organisation and start running the bloody factory.