news & politics:discussion

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I haven't heard about his views, I'm not that bothered by the whole argument as you say just don't read the books if it does bother you.

I think he had some horrible views, but he wrote some good books. I happily have let my kids read them and went to watch Matilda in the theatre last month. To me it’s a non story.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

They didn’t have a choice with Corbyn. He claimed the EHRC report was exaggerated, it left Starmer no choice. If Corbyn really cared about the vulnerable and poor he could have said nothing, instead he chose his ego and echo chamber. From that point it’s a political calculation and the votes for dumping Corbyn are more than you get for keeping him.  
 

As for Abbott I respect her for getting elected. I admire her dignity in how she has handled abhorrent racism. I think however she is a pretty mediocre politician. Completely out of her depth when in the shadow cabinet.

 

I can't believe they couldn't find a way back for Corbyn...and now with Abbott.

[Neil]

24 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I can't believe they couldn't find a way back for Corbyn...and now with Abbott.

they offered corbyn a way back, he decided not to use it.

[pink_triangle]

25 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I can't believe they couldn't find a way back for Corbyn...and now with Abbott.

It’s not they couldn’t find a way back. They offered a way back which was to accept the findings of the report, Corbyn chose not to take the way back. Corbyn takes all the blame here, he chose his ego over party and public.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It’s not they couldn’t find a way back. They offered a way back which was to accept the findings of the report, Corbyn chose not to take the way back. Corbyn takes all the blame here, he chose his ego over party and public.

Surely they could have negotiated something...the guy has been a labour mp for 40 years,he was leader, he probably still really thinks the antisemitic thing was exaggerated for political reasons...still think he didntneed to be kicked out...

[pink_triangle]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Surely they could have negotiated something...the guy has been a labour mp for 40 years,he was leader, he probably still really thinks the antisemitic thing was exaggerated for political reasons...still think he didntneed to be kicked out...

What needs to be negotiated. Instead of apologising and accepting the report in full, the middle ground could have been no comment, he chose not to take it.

If labour had let him back in the result would have been constant questions about Starmer supporting the report denying Corbyn. It would have been all over conservative literature and more importantly it would have cost labour votes and seats in a general election. Starmer could choose to protect the ego of a long standing MP, or the vulnerable and poor who need food, health and education. I think he made the correct choice.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

What needs to be negotiated. Instead of apologising and accepting the report in full, the middle ground could have been no comment, he chose not to take it.

If labour had let him back in the result would have been constant questions about Starmer supporting the report denying Corbyn. It would have been all over conservative literature and more importantly it would have cost labour votes and seats in a general election. Starmer could choose to protect the ego of a long standing MP, or the vulnerable and poor who need food, health and education. I think he made the correct choice.

We've been over this...I just think one day labour will need left votes.

[lost]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I just think one day labour will need left votes.

They've still got Richard Burgon

[steviewevie]

And McDonnell!

[steviewevie]

Actually there are quite a few left wing MPs...if labour majority is small they could have quite a bit of influence...if they can avoid staying stupid shit like Abbott.

 

[pink_triangle]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

We've been over this...I just think one day labour will need left votes.

In 2024 labour need votes wherever they come from. The poor and vulnerable need a labour government now, they can’t afford an election to be sacrificed to massage the ego of a long serving MP and his followers.

Your right in some extent labour need left (whatever that means) votes, but no point keeping hold of Corbynite voters in Liverpool and London if it costs you similar voters in Wrexham and Bolton.

I think the key thing is also “the left” will vote for labour as the only options available are a conservative led government or a labour led one. I consider myself on the pragmatic left and voted for Corbyn in 2019. Many to the left of me will reach the same conclusion come the next election. Some middle class Momentum types are happy in opposition, most on the left (whatever shade) want to get in government and start changing things.

[pink_triangle]

13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Actually there are quite a few left wing MPs...if labour majority is small they could have quite a bit of influence...if they can avoid staying stupid shit like Abbott.

 

I think people exaggerate the differences between centre left MPs and the socialist wing. They agree on loads of stuff, the agreements just get less attention. I think they can easily find common ground if labour win. As long as the socialists focus on bread and butter issues and not Middle East politics.

So far you get the impression the socialist grouping are being sensible and staying quiet. A big moment could be if Jez stands as an independent as they may have to pick a side.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In 2024 labour need votes wherever they come from. The poor and vulnerable need a labour government now, they can’t afford an election to be sacrificed to massage the ego of a long serving MP and his followers.

Your right in some extent labour need left (whatever that means) votes, but no point keeping hold of Corbynite voters in Liverpool and London if it costs you similar voters in Wrexham and Bolton.

I think the key thing is also “the left” will vote for labour as the only options available are a conservative led government or a labour led one. I consider myself on the pragmatic left and voted for Corbyn in 2019. Many to the left of me will reach the same conclusion come the next election. Some middle class Momentum types are happy in opposition, most on the left (whatever shade) want to get in government and start changing things.

I'm not that left but I get a bit fed up with the left are just middle class opposition fans thing...they maybe more ideological,but they definitely want power to change things. Biden reached out to all sides of Democrat party and has benefited, but Starmer doesn't seem to want to...and he really may need them to win a 2nd term, and not sure how much help poor vulnerable people will get from a one term labour govt considering the state of everything. Are voters really that concerned if Corbyn is an MP? They want change, they want shit to improve, they want something radical, not same old...

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

We've been over this...I just think one day labour will need left votes.

Corbyn regularly voted against a Labour government anyway, he’s better off out of the Party now. It’s not like Labour could rely on him anyway. 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Corbyn regularly voted against a Labour government anyway, he’s better off out of the Party now. It’s not like Labour could rely on him anyway. 

Yes, but his support...

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Corbyn regularly voted against a Labour government anyway

yep, which made him not a part of that left-ist coalition.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Corbyn regularly voted against a Labour government anyway, he’s better off out of the Party now. It’s not like Labour could rely on him anyway. 

..like invading Iraq...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

..like invading Iraq...

Sorry, what?

 

[pink_triangle]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I'm not that left but I get a bit fed up with the left are just middle class opposition fans thing...they maybe more ideological,but they definitely want power to change things. Biden reached out to all sides of Democrat party and has benefited, but Starmer doesn't seem to want to...and he really may need them to win a 2nd term, and not sure how much help poor vulnerable people will get from a one term labour govt considering the state of everything. Are voters really that concerned if Corbyn is an MP? They want change, they want shit to improve, they want something radical, not same old...

I don’t think “the left” are all middle class, opposition types. I think that grouping is noisy on twitter, but doesn’t reflect the real world. I think most on the left, just want a labour government. Some may wish Corbyn was still an MP, but that doesn’t mean they will throw their toys out and let the Torys in because they haven’t got their own way.

I do think Corbyn is a big turn off for labour in seats they need to win. Starmer doesn’t want to go into an election as the man who caved to Corbyn. Jez made his choice.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Ozanne said:

Sorry, what?

 

Voted against.

[pink_triangle]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yes, but his support...

Who are they going to vote for. Our political system means most of their votes won’t count anyway. Of those living in swing seats will they vote green and let the torys win? Some may, most won’t.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Voted against.

He’s voted against a lot more than that, which is my point. He’s hardly been a Labour MP and if doesn’t agree with their policies he shouldn’t be in the Party.

Losing Corbyn holds no real negative for Labour, he is too much of a loose canon and seems like he doesn’t understand what the issue with his response to the ECHR report is. 

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Who are they going to vote for. Our political system means most of their votes won’t count anyway. Of those living in swing seats will they vote green and let the torys win? Some may, most won’t.

We'll see, they may need those votes one day when middle ground voters are put off by labour infighting and the fact things are still a bit shit.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Ozanne said:

He’s voted against a lot more than that, which is my point. He’s hardly been a Labour MP and if doesn’t agree with their policies he shouldn’t be in the Party.

Losing Corbyn holds no real negative for Labour, he is too much of a loose canon and seems like he doesn’t understand what the issue with his response to the ECHR report is. 

Benefit cuts?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Benefit cuts?

I’m not sure what your point is. My point is that he regularly voted against the Labour government so seems pretty pointless him being a Labour MP.