news & politics:discussion

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, cellar said:

I know, and I'm not naive enough to think that it would solve everything, I just think it would do a lot of good that would be felt be a lot of people, a lot of people who are struggling.

I think after all these days of debating it, we're probably all actually on the same side fundamentally, we just disagree with the methods of change. But I am a bit tired of the argument now.

 if that’s what he’d said the whole time then I wouldn’t have been arguing with him last week. 

[Neil]

23 minutes ago, cellar said:

I know, and I'm not naive enough to think that it would solve everything, I just think it would do a lot of good that would be felt be a lot of people, a lot of people who are struggling.

 

well that's all good as long as people aren't claiming it's the whole solution that will'end poverty' cos labour would under-deliver.and i'd want to see what takes the hit to pay for it.

[fraybentos1]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

well that's all good as long as people aren't claiming it's the whole solution that will'end poverty' cos labour would under-deliver.and i'd want to see what takes the hit to pay for it.

you've put this in quotation marks but nobody has ever claimed this.. feel free to actually quote someone if they did which shouldn't be hard if it actually exists  

[Ryan1984]

This is a good one for them as they get to bash the BBC and Lineker (I’m not sure saying ‘the public deserves the truth’ is all that controversial?) and praise their beloved Boris for being brave: 

 

[Neil]

1 hour ago, fraybentos1 said:

Once again you’re arguing against something that no one has said lol. Nobody claimed it would end child poverty, only reduce it. People have even provided some evidence and stats but of course you’ve ignored them.

there's been some sloppy language used  which did say that, labour don't want to misrepresent what they hope to achieve.policies need to be well presented so their success can be measured. the best labour can do is marginal improvements, not major change.

[cellar]

6 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

 if that’s what he’d said the whole time then I wouldn’t have been arguing with him last week. 

Well, I don't believe we're really all that different on this forum. The levels of vitriol might suggest otherwise, but I'm pretty sure we all want the same things.

[cellar]

Apparently you can't receive messages Neil - well I was just trying to say hello

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, cellar said:

Apparently you can't receive messages Neil - well I was just trying to say hello

my inbox was full, soz, have made some space now.

[steviewevie]

All eyes on Spain 👀

[Crazyfool01]

sadly I actually believed the Boris being ill with covid thing ... I really shouldn't have, feel a bit stupid now with all his other lies how I went for this one 

[lost]

So what are they saying? The NHS played along with all the doctors and nurses in on it?

[Guest]

There’s some info on the crowdfunding page plus some sneak peek videos.

[pink_triangle]

15 hours ago, cellar said:

 

Check out the link I just posted - I don't claim to know the best way to achieve this anymore than you do, but some people more in the know do claim that removing the 2-child policy is the best way. As I see it, the burden of proof is on someone else to prove them wrong.

I always think there should be some caution in these reports. Assuming you wouldn’t automatically take on board recommendations from a report from a right leaning think tank. I think my scientific background always leads me to question, who is writing the report, how does their methodology stand up etc. 

From those recommendations I think the one that may be most palatable (to the electorate ) is increasing everyone’s child benefit, as everyone thinks they need more. To me the most effective is targeting through universal credit, but as I say that’s an election loser.

 

[steviewevie]

taking the cap off child benefit so everyone and anyone gets it is same universal thingy as UBI and also how they do things in Scandinavia right? Everyone pays tax, everyone get support from the state, everyone is happy.

Edited July 23, 2023 by steviewevie

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

taking the cap off child benefit so everyone and anyone gets it is same universal thingy as UBI and also how they do things in Scandinavia right? Everyone pays tax, everyone get support from the state, everyone is happy.

Well people without kids don’t get it, then there is the argument should poorer people without kids be paying more for richer people with kids.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Well people without kids don’t get it, then there is the argument should poorer people without kids be paying more for richer people with kids.

sure..and that's why not popular I guess, because of those kind of arguments. So, we can make it means tested with all the complications and unfairness that can come out of that, or just give it to everyone (or every child if you like). 

[cellar]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I always think there should be some caution in these reports. Assuming you wouldn’t automatically take on board recommendations from a report from a right leaning think tank. I think my scientific background always leads me to question, who is writing the report, how does their methodology stand up etc. 

From those recommendations I think the one that may be most palatable (to the electorate ) is increasing everyone’s child benefit, as everyone thinks they need more. To me the most effective is targeting through universal credit, but as I say that’s an election loser.

 

Is there anything in particular about that report that makes you doubt it?

I'm happy enough to take on board findings from any study, I'd probably be more cautious of right leaning groups out of inherent bias, but I'd try to be fair.

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, cellar said:

Is there anything in particular about that report that makes you doubt it?

I'm happy enough to take on board findings from any study, I'd probably be more cautious of right leaning groups out of inherent bias, but I'd try to be fair.

I will hold my hands up that I didn’t have the time to read beyond the summary. Looking at the people who work for the organisation it looks like a bunch of lefties who will no doubt find leftish solutions to the problem. As someone who wants a leftish government that may not be a huge problem to me, but I think it’s worth noting as sometimes people use the word “report “ to almost make something more scientific than political and that’s not always the case.

I have no doubt a right wing think tank will come up with different answers to tackling poverty and will have data to back up their philosophy.

I believe that most people Tory and labour voters want to see less child poverty but may have different views in how that is achieved. From a labour perspective I think there are 2 different discussions what you can pledge to win power and what you can do in power. I don’t assume they are the same, in fact I don’t think they are.

[steviewevie]

 

[Guest]

 

 

[steviewevie]

[Neil]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

There’s some info on the crowdfunding page plus some sneak peek videos.

therre's probably enough spaffer's lies for a trilogy of films.

 

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

the right thinks they can win referendum's don't fall for their plan.

[Guest]

 

A sensible decision, Labour learning from Uxbridge it seems.

[cellar]

4 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I will hold my hands up that I didn’t have the time to read beyond the summary. Looking at the people who work for the organisation it looks like a bunch of lefties who will no doubt find leftish solutions to the problem. As someone who wants a leftish government that may not be a huge problem to me, but I think it’s worth noting as sometimes people use the word “report “ to almost make something more scientific than political and that’s not always the case.

I have no doubt a right wing think tank will come up with different answers to tackling poverty and will have data to back up their philosophy.

I believe that most people Tory and labour voters want to see less child poverty but may have different views in how that is achieved. From a labour perspective I think there are 2 different discussions what you can pledge to win power and what you can do in power. I don’t assume they are the same, in fact I don’t think they are.

Fair enough. I don't think we're that far apart on our beliefs anyway.