news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

This happening today...

 

[Nobody Interesting]

54 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

It's an odd one for me; as it's the parents who will be paying more.  The schools themselves will get the same money per pupil; they just have to pay the extra 20% of fees to the govt.

I'd imagine that there are a lot of the parents out there who can only just afford the fees.  My folks struggled to send me to private school 30 years ago, when the fees were much, much less (and in the North East).  Now, I can't afford the fees for my son, not even close.  So it's those at the bottom end of private school, who'll no longer be able to afford it (average cost is £17k/yr - so will increase to over £20k. Those kids will end up coming back into the state sector for education, while the super rich grab the extra grand a term out of their spare change.

Not sure it's that much of a vote winner; those who support it, will likely already vote labour.  

Well, what to say...................

VAT does not have to be passed on to the buyer, that is the choice of the business.

During COVID hospitality had VAT rates cuts and most chose not to pass that on but when rates went back up again most chose to then pass that on so profit came first both times.

If any increase due to VAT is passed to you on school fees then take it up with the school. After all, your fees are more than many people I know even earn in a year so I find it hard to have any sympathy if you did have to pay more.

Personally I think all schools should be the same, the same chances for all everywhere regardless of wealth so perhaps I am not the right person to discuss this with.

You pay VAT on most things you buy................ state schools pay it on things they buy so I see no reason at all that VAT should be charged on school fees at profit making businesses.

[Nobody Interesting]

This was all warned about over 20 years ago by climate scientists who absolutely knew what they were talking about......... it is just happening 10 years sooner than they thought.

 

Switzerland has lost 10% of its glaciers in just two years, research shows, after high summer heat and low winter snowfall.

The country lost as much ice in the 24 months as it did in the three decades before 1990, researchers said, describing the ice melt as "catastrophic".

 

Switzerland - home to the most glaciers of any country in Europe - has seen 4% of its total glacier volume disappear in 2023, the second-biggest decline in a single year on top of a record 6% drop in 2022.

The team at Glacier Monitoring Switzerland (GLAMOS) said the "massive ice loss" stemmed from a winter with very low volumes of snow - which falls on top of glaciers and protects them from exposure to direct sunlight - and high summer temperatures.

All of Switzerland - where the Alps cut a swathe through most of the southern and central parts of the country - was affected, though glaciers in the southern and eastern regions melted almost as fast as in 2022's record thaw.

 

In some places, GLAMOS had to cease monitoring due to the melt.

[steviewevie]

problem is...climate change seems to have become part of the wider culture war...and when that happens it's all f**ked.

[gary1979666]

3 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Well, what to say...................

VAT does not have to be passed on to the buyer, that is the choice of the business.

During COVID hospitality had VAT rates cuts and most chose not to pass that on but when rates went back up again most chose to then pass that on so profit came first both times.

If any increase due to VAT is passed to you on school fees then take it up with the school. After all, your fees are more than many people I know even earn in a year so I find it hard to have any sympathy if you did have to pay more.

Personally I think all schools should be the same, the same chances for all everywhere regardless of wealth so perhaps I am not the right person to discuss this with.

You pay VAT on most things you buy................ state schools pay it on things they buy so I see no reason at all that VAT should be charged on school fees at profit making businesses.

There's a bit of a nuance that you're missing though - VAT isn't the choice of the business - they have to add on the 20% to the customer and pass that back to HMRC.  What the business / school has control of is where the base charge is set.  

I would imagine that the school will keep fees the same and blame the increase entirely on the government.  If they see numbers dwindle, then they may choose to revise fees. But lower fees and or lower numbers mean lower VAT take for the govt.

I get your point on whether there should or shouldn't be the opt out - there should be a standard level of education for all.  But that isn't available class to class, let alone school to school.  But that's a different debate for now.  I'm just thinking about the impact of adding 20% to the fees.

 

[Neil]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/28/hs2-fiasco-clientelism-profit-big-projects

 

[steviewevie]

 

[Nobody Interesting]

21 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

There's a bit of a nuance that you're missing though - VAT isn't the choice of the business - they have to add on the 20% to the customer and pass that back to HMRC.  What the business / school has control of is where the base charge is set.  

I would imagine that the school will keep fees the same and blame the increase entirely on the government.  If they see numbers dwindle, then they may choose to revise fees. But lower fees and or lower numbers mean lower VAT take for the govt.

I get your point on whether there should or shouldn't be the opt out - there should be a standard level of education for all.  But that isn't available class to class, let alone school to school.  But that's a different debate for now.  I'm just thinking about the impact of adding 20% to the fees.

 

Not missing it at all - it is their choice whether to make your fees higher due to VAT. They could reduce the fee so that the fee including VAT is the same.............. if they wanted........................... but given all too many of these schools are connected to Tory Donors in many ways why would they when there are Labour Damning headlines to be won?

[Nobody Interesting]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

or maybe this one is the blip?

 

Of all the rest ones it seems to be the only one with a big Labour improvement. The others in the last 7 days have a 16 point lead.

Time will tell....................

and as for the Lib Dems - Braverman saw to them having any bounce with her well time speech of hate to coincide with Ed Daveys speech..................... a speech few know even happened.

[philipsteak]

11 hours ago, Neil said:

i bought a posh coffee today from the cafe at the hospital (not the sort of thing i do often), and i noticed the price £3.80 - didn't realise they cost so much).

Been heading that way for a while now. I'm really in to coffee (my only real vice these days) so I've really noticed it. Paid best part of a fiver before now (it was bloody lovely though) and you can pay more depending on the beans/method used.

Getting more expensive to buy good quality beans for home use too, although not gone up as much as cafes. But then they have all their other expenses too

[philipsteak]

2 hours ago, Nobody Interesting said:

If you read just one thing today................... make it this

https://stateofnature.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/TP25999-State-of-Nature-main-report_2023_FULL-DOC-v12.pdf

 

The UK, already the most nature depleted country in most of the world is at breaking point.....................

In just 10 years 6.7% of all species gone...................... at that rate there will be nothing left in 123 years.

I reckon you'd really like the book 'Wild Fell' by Lee Schofield.

[gary1979666]

30 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Not missing it at all - it is their choice whether to make your fees higher due to VAT. They could reduce the fee so that the fee including VAT is the same.............. if they wanted........................... but given all too many of these schools are connected to Tory Donors in many ways why would they when there are Labour Damning headlines to be won?

I can't imagine many private schools would be able to afford a 17% cut in their income and swallow the VAT.  In reality, it'll be a combination of the two.  I would have thought their motivations are largely to do with making the numbers work to keep the school going, rather than to make a political statement (I'm not saying that some won't, esp the bigger names like Eton, Harrow, etc, but generally not.)

[Neil]

33 minutes ago, philipsteak said:

. I'm really in to coffee

me too, i haven't drunk an instant coffee for more than  30 years.i even have a filter coffee machine in my office next to my desk.

my fav filter coffee is sainsbury's french blend. been drinking that for 40 years.

[Neil]

12 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

I can't imagine many private schools would be able to afford a 17% cut in their income and swallow the VAT.

vat is 20% has been for years (early in blair's govt).

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

I can't imagine many private schools would be able to afford a 17% cut in their income and swallow the VAT.  In reality, it'll be a combination of the two.  I would have thought their motivations are largely to do with making the numbers work to keep the school going, rather than to make a political statement (I'm not saying that some won't, esp the bigger names like Eton, Harrow, etc, but generally not.)

as schools will lose their charity status and have higher costs cos of that i can't see schools being able to suck up the vat - i reckon most peeps with kids at fee paying schools, will have a business they can put the vat thru and claim it back (that's what i'd do).

[gary1979666]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

vat is 20% has been for years (early in blair's govt).

I know, but if they charge £100 now and then have to apply 20% VAT, but want to keep the end price at £100, then the base price would be ~£83, so that ~£83 + 20% = £100.  So a ~17% drop in revenue.

I guess my private education bought me an ability to do percentages.  It's maths, init?😉 

 

[gary1979666]

12 minutes ago, Neil said:

as schools will lose their charity status and have higher costs cos of that i can't see schools being able to suck up the vat - i reckon most peeps with kids at fee paying schools, will have a business they can put the vat thru and claim it back (that's what i'd do).

That's one way around it and I'm sure a few might, but most of them wouldn't risk it - it'd be a big old expense which would flag to any auditor or could get picked up at a VAT inspection.  

[steviewevie]

just abolish private schools.

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

just abolish private schools.

problem is it cost state schools to educate the extra pupils. you're saying put extra load on state schools.

[Neil]

14 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

I know, but if they charge £100 now and then have to apply 20% VAT, but want to keep the end price at £100, then the base price would be ~£83, so that ~£83 + 20% = £100.  So a ~17% drop in revenue.

I guess my private education bought me an ability to do percentages.  It's maths, init?😉 

 

what t6he vat rate is isn't maths it's what the govt sets it at which is 20%. when you  said 17% i thought you were quoting the old vat rate.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

problem is it cost state schools to educate the extra pupils. you're saying put extra load on state schools.

yes, send them to sh*tty comps with all the other proles.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Thanks - but prior to that you admit you did not know fees or VAT and yet you were stating with no doubt that what you said was right............... or maybe it is just how you word things with utter certainty that makes readers think that.

 

Anyway, the damage of  a uturn, even partial, is done and the media and Tories will use it against them even if it is not really a uturn much at all.

I missed the wording in the headline so that’s my bad but equally it was in that headline if you wanted to know the answer.

The main point about it being quicker to add VAT instead of change charity status is the reason they’ve made this change though and is also listed as the reason in that article. It’s not really that deep when you look into it and seems to make sense as changing charity status from an institution is quite difficult I’ve read.

I don’t think they’ll be any damage done here at all, barely any of the normal public will notice this I would imagine. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

 

It looks like as they say there that last weeks was an outlier or temporary rise after the policy announcements.

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It looks like as they say there that last weeks was an outlier or temporary rise after the policy announcements.

can ignore the polls unless something significant happens, labour are going to stay out in front.

[Nobody Interesting]

and now we have plastic in the sky!!

 

Researchers have found tiny particles of plastic in clouds, where they may be contributing to climate change.

Scientists collected water from the clouds surrounding Japan's Mount Fuji and Mount Oyama at altitudes between 1,300-3,776m and then applied advanced imaging techniques to determine whether microplastics were present.

 

Nine different types of polymers and one type of rubber were found in the airborne microplastics, at concentrations between 6.7-13.9 pieces per litre and sizes ranging between 7.1-94.6 micrometres.

They also found an abundance of hydrophilic (or water-loving) polymers, which they said might act as "cloud condensation nuclei" - suggesting they play a key role in rapid cloud formation, which might eventually affect the overall climate.