news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

i see SNP MP Lisa Cameron has defected to the tories the natural home of snp supporters (tartan tories). their time has gone, like to see someone predict sindy in a few years like people used to.

[collectivisedfarming]

As we're doing Corbyn fan fiction again this was the position of Corbyn's Labour on Israel and Palestine from the 2019 manifesto (the 2017 manifesto said almost the same):

Quote

"Labour is committed to a comprehensive peace in the Middle East based on a twostate solution – a secure Israel alongside a secure and viable state of Palestine. There can be no military solution to this conflict, which must be settled on the basis of justice and international law. All sides must avoid taking action that would make peace harder to achieve. That means both an end to the blockade, occupation and settlements, and an end to rocket and terror attacks. Labour will continue to press for an immediate return to meaningful negotiations leading to a diplomatic resolution. A Labour government will immediately recognise the state of Palestine."

No reasonable person would take issue with any of that.

You'd think Labour had "Victory to the Intifada, River to the Sea" in their manifesto the way some people carry on. I should add that I suspect very similar language (minus the last sentence) to appear in the next Labour manifesto. 

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, collectivisedfarming said:

No reasonable person would take issue with any of that.

And there is the problem.

[mattiloy]

5 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Need to at the least get back to a viable two state solution. A one state solution would be ideal, but just can't see that ever happening. Palestinians just keep losing too much land...over the decades there is a flare up and war and Israeli occupation increases and life gets harder for Palestinians. US, China, and countries in region need to get together and draw up a workable plan and get the sides talking. Ideally Netanyahu and his nutty govt would be replaced with something more moderate, same with Hamas in Gaza. 

The israeli govt dont want a one state solution. Why would they, the demographics would result in an arab majority within a generation.

They want the land but not the people. So what to do? Genocide.

But in a way that doesn’t alienate their international backers- otherwise they’re cooked because they are surrounded by countries with an axe to grind.

So what then? A long drawn out war of attrition/apartheid. Make it horrible to live there. Make them need to flee.

So whats the end game? Just more of the same ad infinitum- total oppression and slow whittling away of land by settlers.

It stinks.

Edited October 12, 2023 by mattiloy

[stuie]

36 minutes ago, Neil said:

i see SNP MP Lisa Cameron has defected to the tories the natural home of snp supporters (tartan tories). their time has gone, like to see someone predict sindy in a few years like people used to.

I think Brexit has shown Scotland that leaving the UK would be more grief than it's worth. No one has the appetite for more misery and division. 

[steviewevie]

31 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The israeli govt dont want a one state solution. Why would they, the demographics would result in an arab majority within a generation.

 

they probably think Palestinians would slaughter them...not sure why...?

[hodgey123]

15 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

This is disgraceful. 

Absolutely! The latest iteration of Starmer being absolutely petrified of offending Tory media/voters.

[fred quimby]

My wife lived in Israel for a far few years, on a kibbutz and Tel Aviv. When she came back and we got together, 95, she did say then she could never see a solution being reached. It has just got worse

[cellar]

2 hours ago, lazyred said:

Hamas don't care about Palistiniens or a peaceful settlement with Isreal. The whole point is to provoke  an Isreali response which they can use to try and widen the dispute. 

I'm talking about the international community not taking action against Israel at some point in the last 50 years. I guess maybe the potential threat of nuclear war. Maybe some sort of similar agreements with the US as the US had with the Saudis?

[fred quimby]

12 hours ago, cellar said:

 Typical human behaviour, like believing the sun is pulled across the sky in a chariot.

Wait!, what are you saying 

[Crazyfool01]

10 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

Absolutely! The latest iteration of Starmer being absolutely petrified of offending Tory media/voters.

They’ll always be someone to win over … 

[hodgey123]

2 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

They’ll always be someone to win over … 

Agreed. File this under the 'things that Starmer says to win an election but definitely doesn't mean and will renege on once he wins'...

[cellar]

5 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Wait!, what are you saying 

😂

[Neil]

51 minutes ago, stuie said:

I think Brexit has shown Scotland that leaving the UK would be more grief than it's worth. No one has the appetite for more misery and division. 

the snp dine out on that division.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I think for everything that is wrong with this country I am lucky to be here, many more worse options than better.

The reality is Starmer has to win a popularity contest if he wants to lead the country. It’s easy for me and you when we can effectively say what we want. I wouldn’t want to have to make the tough decisions that you need to make as PM.

I believe Starmer is in it for the right reasons. I believe lives in this country will be saved by a Starmer led labour government. Whether Palestinian lives will be saved im not sure we have that influence, although I would back him to put the right people in positions to make a small movement in the right direction.

It’s easy to be a labour leader like Corbyn. Happy to be an indefinite party of protest, say what people want to hear and not make tough decisions. Starmer wants to lead and not have people chant his name.

It goes back to Alistair Campbell and the ming vase analogy doesn’t it. He has to very carefully tip toe round certain things and carefully not try to break the vase (in this case their poll lead). If he can get to the other side of the room with that vase in tact then he’ll have a good chance of getting into Downing Street and changing lives for the better.

I think his government/manifesto will be more radical than people realise. 

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, collectivisedfarming said:

As we're doing Corbyn fan fiction again this was the position of Corbyn's Labour on Israel and Palestine from the 2019 manifesto (the 2017 manifesto said almost the same):

No reasonable person would take issue with any of that.

You'd think Labour had "Victory to the Intifada, River to the Sea" in their manifesto the way some people carry on. I should add that I suspect very similar language (minus the last sentence) to appear in the next Labour manifesto. 

It’s not just the words of a manifesto, but the words he uses towards Hamas, previous things he has said on the matter etc. In the Israeli/Palestine dispute there was no doubt where his loyalties lay and he is entitled to those views.

What the Torys would love Starmer to do is take a similar approach, you may ask yourself if that’s what the torys want, should we do it?

[Guest]

Yes it’s the traps the Tories have been trying to set for Starmer and he refuses to be drawn into it. It’s why they keep playing the ‘Corbyn’ card with him and they think this is the thing that will work. 

[Crazyfool01]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It’s not just the words of a manifesto, but the words he uses towards Hamas, previous things he has said on the matter etc. In the Israeli/Palestine dispute there was no doubt where his loyalties lay and he is entitled to those views.

What the Torys would love Starmer to do is take a similar approach, you may ask yourself if that’s what the torys want, should we do it?

The Tory’s will also enjoy Starmer having closer policy’s to theirs as he will continue what they want 

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Yes it’s the traps the Tories have been trying to set for Starmer and he refuses to be drawn into it. It’s why they keep playing the ‘Corbyn’ card with him and they think this is the thing that will work. 

The trap being the Hamas attack on Israel over the weekend?

[steviewevie]

Blinken is in Israel now...and showing full support for Israel, but I am sure behind the scenes he is asking/telling Israel to show restraint on how far they go. Not sure how much damage they can actually do to Hamas that doesn't end up killing a lot of civilians, including hostages which include kids and Americans...

[Crazyfool01]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Blinken is in Israel now...and showing full support for Israel, but I am sure behind the scenes he is asking/telling Israel to show restraint on how far they go. Not sure how much damage they can actually do to Hamas that doesn't end up killing a lot of civilians, including hostages which include kids and Americans...

There is absolutely no way they can go in and not cause mass casualties whilst achieving mission aim … needles in haystacks with armed guards .absolutely grim  😞 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

The trap being the Hamas attack on Israel over the weekend?

No I'm talking generally, they set traps with policies, culture wars and other areas. Take HS2 as an example, I expect they wanted him to come out and immediately say Labour will build it then the Tories can say ‘same old Labour’ etc.

I’m sure they would like him to say things that Corbyn used to say on Hamas etc but he’s not doing that. 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

No I'm talking generally, they set traps with policies, culture wars and other areas. Take HS2 as an example, I expect they wanted him to come out and immediately say Labour will build it then the Tories can say ‘same old Labour’ etc.

I’m sure they would like him to say things that Corbyn used to say on Hamas etc but he’s not doing that. 

Yeah, would be very awkward for Corbyn if he was still leader.

[lazyred]

46 minutes ago, cellar said:

I'm talking about the international community not taking action against Israel at some point in the last 50 years. I guess maybe the potential threat of nuclear war. Maybe some sort of similar agreements with the US as the US had with the Saudis?

I was answering your final sentance about Hamas acting out of desperation whereas I think they have a strategy. 

On the last 50 years I think it was part of the cold war with the US backing Isreal and USSR backing Arab Govts and various terrorist groups. Even now this is about regional powers involving Iran, Saudis and Isreal. The Palestinians have always been pawns in a bigger game. 

Their problem is old allies slowly losing interest as time passes. Egypt and Jordan made peace with Isreal as did the PLO to some extent. More recently some African and Gulf states have gone the same way. This only ends with recognising Isreal is here to stay and doing a peace deal. 

[collectivisedfarming]

26 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It’s not just the words of a manifesto, but the words he uses towards Hamas, previous things he has said on the matter etc. In the Israeli/Palestine dispute there was no doubt where his loyalties lay and he is entitled to those views.

What the Torys would love Starmer to do is take a similar approach, you may ask yourself if that’s what the torys want, should we do it?

He once, ill advisedly referred to individual members of Hamas as friends. Which he clarified and expressed regret. Not a big deal. 

Anyone who really thinks Corbyn, who has supported human rights and peace more than any other MP, sympathises with the aims of Hamas is either genuinely profoundly stupid or is being performative.

I don't care about the Tories. I think lathing this latest bloodshed into an optics issue or centering British politics within it is a bit suss to be honest.