news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

47 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

He was asked specifically about the prospect of Israel committed war crimes and responded only that ’she’ had an absolute right to defend herself. Emily Thornberry the same. They are a disgrace.

This is the problem with focus group, reactive politicking- when the moment requires somebody to step up proactively and lead, there is just a vacuum and this kind of sh*t happens. A disaster. Then once its happened and they have enough of a read of the public reaction, then and only then do they adopt the position- when its too late.

its impossible to lead on this issue, cos its not like anyone can lead with a solution that both sides will follow, Israel is scared of having a neighbouring Palestinian state cos it would be able to carry out attacks like these attacks, and the whole point of Israel is for it to be a safe space.

what has corbyn achieved with 30 years of being friends with terrorists?

[Neil]

[Neil]

[Neil]

[Neil]

[Skip997]

19 minutes ago, Neil said:

I've been saying this for years. It's so obvious.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

I've been saying this for years. It's so obvious.

Maybe, just maybe it is a bit more nuanced than that.

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe, just maybe it is a bit more nuanced than that.

Give me a clue

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Give me a clue

oh god. Ok, nuanced as I say. People saying that they think Israelis/Jews think they are the chosen ones? British Jews feeling they have to state their anti Israel position otherwise they're accused of being zionist scum? Saying made up bullshit like Hitler was a zionist? Saying zionists don't understand english irony? Rise in antisemitism abuse after last weekend's Hamas attacks? Pro palestine protesters chanting Gas The Jews? Conversations with my brother who went from Jewish lobby in America being the reason US supports Israel to Jews control all the money?

[Skip997]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

People saying that they think Israelis/Jews think they are the chosen ones?

This is true, Jews do believe they are the chosen race (as a generalization of course, there are some who don't).

Quote

In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews, via descent from the ancient Israelites, are the chosen people, i.e., chosen to be in a covenant with God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

Edited October 18, 2023 by Skip997

[steviewevie]

22 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

This is true, Jews do believe they are the chosen race (as a generalization of course, there are some who don't).

Quote

ok, sweeping statement like that is kind of racist, no? Not all Jews are religious for a start. But if you look here Covenant (biblical) - Wikipedia

Islam[edit]

The Mosaic covenant is referred to in a number of places in the Quran^{[43][44][45][46]} as a reminder for the Jews, of whom two tribes inhabited Medina at the time of Muhammad. The verses also mention particular commandments of the Decalogue and, in God's words, admonishes the Jews for being insolent about it and displaying violence against the prophets – a group of them they called liars, and other prophets among them they killed –^{[Quran 4:155]},^[ 5:70] even though they agreed to keep them at the time the covenant was made.

The Quran also states how God cursed the Children of Israel and made them suffer for breaking the covenant^[ 4:155],^[ 5:13] while also mentioning other covenants such a prophetic covenant with the Israelites in Quran 3:81, the Noahic and Abrahamic covenants in Quran 33:7, and in 5:14 and 7:169 a covenant made with the followers of Jesus (apparently^{[to whom?]} very different from how Christians interpret it), who likewise failed to observe it following their own desires.

So, what does that say about muslims? 

Also from Chosen people - Wikipedia:

In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews, via descent from the ancient Israelites, are the chosen people, i.e., chosen to be in a covenant with God. The idea of the Israelites being chosen by God is found most directly in the Book of Deuteronomy,^[4] where it is applied to Israel at Mount Sinai upon the condition of their acceptance of the Mosaic covenant between themselves and the LORD God. The decalogue immediately follows, and the seventh day sabbath is given as the sign of the covenant, with a requirement that Israel keep it, or else be cut off. The verb 'bahar (בָּחַ֣ר (Hebrew)), and is alluded to elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible using other terms such as "holy people".^[5] Much is written about these topics in rabbinic literature. The three largest Jewish denominations—Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism—maintain the belief that the Jews have been chosen by God for a purpose. Sometimes this choice is seen as charging the Jewish people with a specific mission—to be a light unto the nations, and to exemplify the covenant with God as described in the Torah. This is first prominently outlined in Genesis 12:2.^[6]

While the concept of "choseness" may be understood by some to connote ethnic supremacy,^[7] Conservative Judaism denies this, as it claims that as a result of being chosen, Jews also bear the greatest responsibility, which incurs the most severe punishment upon disobedience.

"Few beliefs have been subject to as much misunderstanding as the 'Chosen People' doctrine. The Torah and the Prophets clearly stated that this does not imply any innate Jewish superiority. In the words of Amos (3:2) 'You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth—that is why I will call you to account for your iniquities.' The Torah tells us that we are to be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" with obligations and duties which flowed from our willingness to accept this status. Far from being a license for special privilege, it entailed additional responsibilities not only toward God but to our fellow human beings. As expressed in the blessing at the reading of the Torah, our people have always felt it to be a privilege to be selected for such a purpose. For the modern traditional Jew, the doctrine of the election and the covenant of Israel offers a purpose for Jewish existence which transcends its own self interests. It suggests that because of our special history and unique heritage we are in a position to demonstrate that a people that takes seriously the idea of being covenanted with God can not only thrive in the face of oppression, but can be a source of blessing to its children and its neighbors. It obligates us to build a just and compassionate society throughout the world and especially in the land of Israel where we may teach by example what it means to be a 'covenant people, a light unto the nations.'"^[8]

 

etc.

But anyway, you go ahead and make some sweeping generalisations about races based on some ancient scripts.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by steviewevie

[Guest]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe because Israel is already bombing the sh*t out of Gaza?

It’s understandable that in some cases you would think that given that is happening with Israel but last week where something especially heinous happened and some people/media jumped to the conclusion that it was Israel, then a little bit later we got some clarification that it probably wasn’t them. The same happened last night and raises the question why some are quick to assume Israel committed an act instead of wait to see what the facts are.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Ozanne

[mattiloy]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s understandable that in some cases you would think that given that is happening but we are it last week

What is this word soup 

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s understandable that in some cases you would think that given that is happening but we are it last week where something especially heinous happened and some people/media jumped to the conclusion that it was Israel, then a little bit later we got some clarification that it probably wasn’t them. The same happened last night and raises the question why some are quick to assume Israel committed an act instead of wait to see what the facts are.

yeah, some but not all presenters on BBC did jump to this conclusion a bit too quickly last night. A few other media broadcasters did too apparently.

I must admit my first assumption was that it was an Israel bomb...and it still might be, needs clarifying that we still don't know either way for sure, and maybe we never will..?

[steviewevie]

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

What is this word soup 

Edited to clear it up a tad.

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, some but not all presenters on BBC did jump to this conclusion a bit too quickly last night. A few other media broadcasters did too apparently.

I must admit my first assumption was that it was an Israel bomb...and it still might be, needs clarifying that we still don't know either way for sure, and maybe we never will..?

The BBC did do that which is a shame as you’d expect them to be above all that  but equally I haven’t seen them rush out to correct themselves or many other people that were so quick to point the finger last night.

We might never know and it’ll probably happen again so I think it’s really important to wait for some facts before we go accusing one side or the other. 

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Edited to clear it up a tad.

The BBC did do that which is a shame as you’d expect them to be above all that  but equally I haven’t seen them rush out to correct themselves or many other people that were so quick to point the finger last night.

We might never know and it’ll probably happen again so I think it’s really important to wait for some facts before we go accusing one side or the other. 

we could be waiting quite some time 

[lazyred]

Thought provoking comment in the Times about what is meant by a proportionate response. I'm not sure what I think of it, I know some here won't like it, I don't see realistic alternatives but  I also don't like the conclusions.
He argues being proportionate is not about the death toll on each side but whether the objective is proportional. So if you accept Hamas are an obstacle to peace and it is reasonable for Isreal to defeat Hamas then you also accept innocent deaths cab be part of the propotionate response -

"These are the tests that ought now to be applied to Israel’s actions. Is the military objective necessary? When pursuing it, were civilian casualties intentional? And even if they were unintentional, were they excessive in relation to the achievement of concrete military advantage?

These are tough tests and require Israel to take care with everything it does. But they are also not bogus tests. They accept that Israel has the right to defend itself and that it is inevitable that, when it does so, some innocent people will die."

I don't know if the share token will work.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd01a5de-6d03-11ee-b5d7-5487922f056f?shareToken=ad34b6ad8e9f210c03849bf527150b86

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

we could be waiting quite some time 

We might not, we don’t know either way but it’s good not to jump to assumptions.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Ozanne

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Ozanne said:

We might not, we don’t know but either way it’s good not to jump to assumptions. 

either way .... although ill admit I believed the bbc newsflash last night . I thought they've been Pro Israel so didn't think they'd have it wrong in the other direction  but maybe my sympathys lie with those getting bombed at the moment as far as this is something that can be prevented . 

[steviewevie]

28 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

either way .... although ill admit I believed the bbc newsflash last night . I thought they've been Pro Israel so didn't think they'd have it wrong in the other direction  but maybe my sympathys lie with those getting bombed at the moment as far as this is something that can be prevented . 

bbc have equal amount of complaints from both sides..as usual.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

either way .... although ill admit I believed the bbc newsflash last night . I thought they've been Pro Israel so didn't think they'd have it wrong in the other direction  but maybe my sympathys lie with those getting bombed at the moment as far as this is something that can be prevented . 

We can all get taken in by it especially at the moment, the trick is to not assume things until we have had confirmation. 

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

bbc have equal amount of complaints from both sides..as usual.

yeah fair enough . unconscious bias I guess , don't think anyones immune from that 

[pink_triangle]

I listened to an interesting podcast about people’s views on foreign affairs. Basically said that most people don’t really understand the issues, so take the lead from politicians they respect.

What does slightly concern me is the feeling things are so polarised that when things like yesterday happen, i get the impression some are more focused on political point scoring than the dead people. I haven’t got a clue what happened and may never know, but it’s a dangerous road if we just look for “facts” that support our view of the world.