news & politics:discussion

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I think people want facts...I want facts...I want to know if Israel bombed that hospital or not....and social media is wild now, opinions everywhere...and people just take what they want and we become more and more polarised.

The trouble is many people don’t want to analyse the facts and come to a conclusion. They want the conclusion first and then look for “facts” to fit. I am seeing so many people use terms like “evidence “, “genuine”, “ trusted source”. Funny thing is they are all things that support their preconceived  views. Not seeing much I previously thought A, but have seen evidence B and now think C

[cellar]

20 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

so what Hamas did was justified response to past crimes by Israel? I mean...both sides will say this, you know that right? 

In the end current situation is Hamas controls Gaza, but Israel has a blockade on Gaza. Now, that is no good for Gaza, but does that warrant Hamas invading and then killing hundreds of Israeli civilians in their homes or at a party or whatever and then taking a whole bunch of people including children, old people, and everything in between hostage..? And Hamas knew what this would mean for Gaza, they are not idiots. They knew there would be a mental response, and they want something bigger and badder. Yes Israeli govt are c**ts, but Hamas are the bigger c**ts imo

Like I said, I'm not about to try to justify killing innocent people. But it's easy to argue that Hamas actions are a product of Israels actions over the years - how else do you fight against a country with superior military? (I'm not suggesting killing innocents is how - but the situation they find themselves in).

I've asked before and you didn't respond, but how do you justify the calorie restrictions Israel put in place? Just answer that one, I find that so much more disturbing because its like proper psychopathic.

I wonder what you actually do believe, whether you're just arguing for the sake of it, or whether you know you can't accept what is being said about Israel is true, without also having to condemn Starmer for it (I don't think the two positions are mutually exclusive btw, but maybe you do).

[Neil]

just been clicking around, and followed the link from the candidates list from one of today's by elections to the website of the Mainstream party (I'd not heard of them before, good words on Israel/Gaza 

talking of hamas it says.....

Quote

 But the strategic aim was to invite reprisal bombings by Israel, to garner sympathy in the wider Arab world

 

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, cellar said:

The same sort of logic can be used to justify Hamas actions in the first place. Not that I believe we should be trying to justify the deaths of innocent people.

Only if you think Hamas actions are proportionate to their objective. Anyone shooting guns and firing bombs will kill innocent people at some point. The intention is important.

 

1 hour ago, cellar said:

I think we can point out wrongdoing on both sides, and Israel is culpable for far more than Hamas over the years, and not just because of numbers of lives lost. 

Isreal's actions over the years have been about security. Zionism was a response to persecution. The UN proposed Isreal/Palastine after the Holocaust. Palestinians were expelled after a war. They took over Gaza and the West bank after a war. There is a secure fence around Gaza because it contains 30,000 fighters who want to kill them

 

[Neil]

11 minutes ago, SheffJeff said:

I think this demonstrates Israel aren't without blame.

of course not: it takes two to war.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

ive not yet seen you mention the plight of those in Gaza ? and leave out Israel .... it works both ways 

I haven’t mentioned much of either to be honest, just commented on the terrorist attack and said to wait for facts.
 

You see it here with a few people a lot, always saying that Hamas are bad but then comment on Israel because they want to criticise Israel under the facade of being objective when they aren’t. 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Only if you think Hamas actions are proportionate to their objective. Anyone shooting guns and firing bombs will kill innocent people at some point. The intention is important.

 

Isreal's actions over the years have been about security. Zionism was a response to persecution. The UN proposed Isreal/Palastine after the Holocaust. Palestinians were expelled after a war. They took over Gaza and the West bank after a war. There is a secure fence around Gaza because it contains 30,000 fighters who want to kill them

west bank and Gaza were territories of other countries (Jordan & Egypt respectively -after one of the wars when they were occupied by Israel those countries ceded the land to a future Palestinian state). Israel wants those bits of land as they're regarded as part of biblical Palestine (parts of 'the promised land', [ Israel wants more than those bits to fulfil what they regard as their religious destiny]

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is many people don’t want to analyse the facts and come to a conclusion. They want the conclusion first and then look for “facts” to fit. I am seeing so many people use terms like “evidence “, “genuine”, “ trusted source”. Funny thing is they are all things that support their preconceived  views. Not seeing much I previously thought A, but have seen evidence B and now think C

Do you think any of it is more sinister than that?

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Do you think any of it is more sinister than that?

most people have picked their side and will ride it to destruction.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Neil

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

I haven’t mentioned much of either to be honest, just commented on the terrorist attack and said to wait for facts.
 

You see it here with a few people a lot, always saying that Hamas are bad but then comment on Israel because they want to criticise Israel under the facade of being objective when they aren’t. 

instead of the some people can you direct quote them ? just clears up misunderstanding who you mean as im trying to figure out if this is supposed to apply to me , or tag them 

[Neil]

Just now, Crazyfool01 said:

instead of the some people can you direct quote them ? just clears up misunderstanding who you mean as im trying to figure out if this is supposed to apply to me , or tag them 

you're as capable as anyone else of reading the posts here . if you've been following the discussion you should be aware who he's referencing. if you suspect it might apply to yourself, consider what you've posted and check whether it applies.

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The trouble is many people don’t want to analyse the facts and come to a conclusion. They want the conclusion first and then look for “facts” to fit. I am seeing so many people use terms like “evidence “, “genuine”, “ trusted source”. Funny thing is they are all things that support their preconceived  views. Not seeing much I previously thought A, but have seen evidence B and now think C

Problem is these days people will just believe anything....whether it's CIA killing JFK, fake moon landing, MI5 killing Diana, US/Israel carrying out 9/11, COVID was a plot to chip us all, or Labour antisemitism accusations were a scam. You take your pick...

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

you're as capable as anyone else of reading the posts here . if you've been following the discussion you should be aware who he's referencing. if you suspect it might apply to yourself, consider what you've posted and check whether it applies.

without going back through I don't know ... that's why I asked ? 

[lazyred]

17 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

ive not yet seen you mention the plight of those in Gaza ? and leave out Israel .... it works both ways 

Not directed to me but Its horrific for Gazans. Losing lives and homes, crammed into smaller areas with  no guarantee of safety. The water and power should not be cut off and aid should be allowed in.  I'd also like to see the west pay Egypt to accept some refugees.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, lazyred said:

Not directed to me but Its horrific for Gazans. Losing lives and homes, crammed into smaller areas with  no guarantee of safety. The water and power should not be cut off and aid should be allowed in.  I'd also like to see the west pay Egypt to accept some refugees.

yeah absolutely id also add us to that  Europe and US too , just like we did for Ukrainians 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

instead of the some people can you direct quote them ? just clears up misunderstanding who you mean as im trying to figure out if this is supposed to apply to me , or tag them 

As Neil said it’s not difficult to follow the discussion or go back and look. I’m sure you know who it is. 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Ozanne said:

As Neil said it’s not difficult to follow the discussion or go back and look. I’m sure you know who it is. 

so just quote them ... its far easier than a general some 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Neil said:

most people have picked their side and will ride it to destruction.

I mean, is it just people having their side or is there a more dark element to some of the discussion? I really don’t know and am not sure. 

[steviewevie]

Biden using the term "other team" is a bit weird (stupid).

[Neil]

11 minutes ago, lazyred said:

west pay Egypt to accept some refugees.

doesn't work for decades the UN paid for refugee camps in beirut and Jordan, and they were used as places to train fighters and launch attacks on Israel, and all the while those people demanded the right to return to Palestine.

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Biden using the term "other team" is a bit weird (stupid).

i think its being done to distance the USA from Israel's actions

[Neil]

17 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I mean, is it just people having their side or is there a more dark element to some of the discussion? I really don’t know and am not sure. 

i think that dark element is there, and helps ensure the status quo, to the determent of both sides.

[Neil]

21 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

yeah absolutely id also add us to that  Europe and US too , just like we did for Ukrainians 

you're assuming the Palestinians want to give up their claim to their own land -  if they were prepared to do that we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[lazyred]

9 minutes ago, Neil said:

doesn't work for decades the UN paid for refugee camps in beirut and Jordan, and they were used as places to train fighters and launch attacks on Israel, and all the while those people demanded the right to return to Palestine.

I agree but the alternative is to leave them in a war zone while Isreal fight Hamas

[cellar]

46 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Only if you think Hamas actions are proportionate to their objective. Anyone shooting guns and firing bombs will kill innocent people at some point. The intention is important.

 

Isreal's actions over the years have been about security. Zionism was a response to persecution. The UN proposed Isreal/Palastine after the Holocaust. Palestinians were expelled after a war. They took over Gaza and the West bank after a war. There is a secure fence around Gaza because it contains 30,000 fighters who want to kill them

 

Do you think Israels apartheid against Palestine still falls short of them measuring up to be "the biggest bad guy"?