news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Not sure how that would lower tensions . Might stop some misinformation but I doubt that tbh 

less fake news will mean fewer wrongly motivated protests and the  high tensions they create.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok I love a pile on and all that...but didn't cellar say I supported Israeli apartheid because I said nothing excused what Hamas did. There's so much high and mighty self righteousness on this thread sometimes...

Yes he did and barely anyone batted an eyelid.

Mattiloy accused someone else of racism and again no one batted an eye lid. 

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, Neil said:

not necessarily, can rationalise their need to control their own destiny. and also recognise that the Palestinians have chosen badly when they've had choices for their own destiny.

but surely you understand the Palestinian's point of view...this was their home and then was carved up without them agreeing to it and then they many of them were displaced and every time they fight back it gets worse...

Basically there are no goodies or baddies in any of this.

[lazyred]

39 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

the thing with Israel is they want a majority Jewish population, otherwise that defeats the whole point. Obviously this should go against any liberal's viewpoint...but I guess Jews had a specific case, their persecution everywhere culminating in the holocaust, unless that's fake news too.

Pretty much what I think about Isreal. A state based around one religion/culture isn't attractive even it has liberal values. But centuries of persecution culminating in the Holocaust means Jews deserve a safe space they can secure for themselves. Alongside Palestinians need their own secure space.  Palestinians and other non jews who are citizens of Isreal have equal rights as far as I can see but they are obviouly a minority. In the west bank its different and there is clear oppresion of palestinians and state support for the illega settlements.  However there is also a real threat to Isreal from the militant groups there.

[mattiloy]

35 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Yes he did and barely anyone batted an eyelid.

Mattiloy accused someone else of racism and again no one batted an eye lid. 

Here you go:

’Palestinians have got a habit of starting civil wars wherever they are due to their extremist religious beliefs.’

Besides being idiotic (palestinians refugees presumably exist in most countries in the world by this point and I guess largely without starting a ’civil war’), it didn’t say Hamas, or extremist Palestinians, but just Palestinians. Including presumably Christian Palestinians.

On the face of it its a fairly cut and dry bit of casual racism. It might just not have been very thought through or something but I dont remember any subsequent attempt to reword or clarify.

Its exactly the kind of comment your pissed up nobhead down your local would make if a group of travellers moved into your town. ’Ooh we dont want any travellers, they cause trouble wherever they go’. I dont like it myself, but fine if you do.

Edited October 22, 2023 by mattiloy

[fraybentos1]

56 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah not talking about you...I've had cellar on ignore since a few weeks ago but see him/her/it in your posts and felt the need to respond

The classic Stevie ‘ I’ve had X on ignore for ages’ but never actually having them on ignore

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, cellar said:

Ahh okay. Can you answer my question, please?

Do I think that Palestine is an equal contender in this crisis?

As in combatants fighting in Gaza or for having right on their side? I don't think Palestinians come out best on either criteria.

They are clearly weaker in military terms. If Isreal invade Gaza whilst its full of non combatants it will be a blood bath. Afterwards it will be miserable rebuilding their society under a blockade. I have enormous sympathy for palestinians caught up in it. What happened 75 years ago was part of the world being reconfigured after WW2. India was partitioned around the same time. 2 religions killing each other and populations migrating to new territory. No one is marching saying that should be reversed. The tragedy is Arabs not accepting 2 states back then. Now most Arab govts accept Isreal is not going away. The palestinians need to catch up and establish their own state without threatening Isreal.

Edited October 22, 2023 by lazyred
typo

[squirrelarmy]

21 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

On the face of it its a fairly cut and dry bit of casual racism. It might just not have been very thought through or something but I dont remember any subsequent attempt to reword or clarify.

There’s a recent article here which explains why Egypt don’t want to take on Palestinian refugees. 

I assumed you would have known the history of the region due to your expertise on the subject  

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d

[Skip997]

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, cellar said:

The indefensible position is trying to justify an apartheid state, delivered by Israel, under the guise of being against a terrorist organisation.

Discuss the points at hand. How do you feel about the calorie control that Israel imposed on Palestine?

I think it’s really sh*t and I’m glad I live in this county. Despite having leaders like Bojo and Truss at least we can walk the streets and feel relatively safe.

I wish Hamas had not killed all those Israeli people and the truth is they care little for any of their own innocent victims. The reality is after what happened the idea that Israel won’t retaliate is unrealistic, so we are already in damage limitation territory. I think talking about Israel being as bad as Hamas or an apartheid state helps nobody.

Screaming we want a ceasefire won’t deliver one, so what is the path to making things better. It’s probably secret conversations which we will never hear and don’t know are happening, something that’s hard to debate on here.

[squirrelarmy]

People have been fighting over that same patch of land for thousands of years. If Israel or Palestine didn’t exist there would still be some form of conflict there. 
 

I repeat myself a lot but as long as there is religious fanaticism there will never truly be peace. 

[cellar]

13 hours ago, steviewevie said:

ok I love a pile on and all that...but didn't cellar say I supported Israeli apartheid because I said nothing excused what Hamas did. There's so much high and mighty self righteousness on this thread sometimes...

I don't think that's what I said. I think I said you supported an apartheid state because you supported Israel. Which was probably still an overreaction.

But you've flip flopped so much since then anyway, who knows what you actually believe.

But you can't see this, so...

[cellar]

12 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

The classic Stevie ‘ I’ve had X on ignore for ages’ but never actually having them on ignore

Yeah I used to have a little bit of respect for him, but he's let himself down these last few weeks

[Neil]

8 hours ago, squirrelarmy said:

I repeat myself a lot but as long as there is religious fanaticism there will never truly be peace. 

just to make it clear the religious fanaticism is from the Israeli's.

[philipsteak]

12 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Not recent news but Wales 20mph speed limit is a massive ballache! 

I've not even been back since it was introduced and it is for me!. My mum won't stop banging on about it (she lives on Anglesey) every time I call. She's a good example of the "war on motorists" culture war stuff working though. She barely drives anywhere these days and when she does it's not like she's in a rush but o hear her talk about it you'd think it was the most significant issue today.

Not like it's cost her vote though, she's never voted Labour in her life

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, philipsteak said:

I've not even been back since it was introduced and it is for me!. My mum won't stop banging on about it (she lives on Anglesey) every time I call. She's a good example of the "war on motorists" culture war stuff working though. She barely drives anywhere these days and when she does it's not like she's in a rush but o hear her talk about it you'd think it was the most significant issue today.

Not like it's cost her vote though, she's never voted Labour in her life

Is it 20mph everywhere or just urban areas?

[grumpyhack]

Pretty much everywhere that used to be 30 mph is now 20 mph.  I've voted Labour for over 50 years but I won't be in the next Welsh Assembly elections.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, grumpyhack said:

Pretty much everywhere that used to be 30 mph is now 20 mph.  I've voted Labour for over 50 years but I won't be in the next Welsh Assembly elections.

is it policed with cameras etc? We have 20mph in a lot of Manchester and not many people stick to it as far as I can tell...unless the speed bumps slow them down.

[philipsteak]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Is it 20mph everywhere or just urban areas?

I think it's everywhere that was 30mph

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, cellar said:

Yeah I used to have a little bit of respect for him, but he's let himself down these last few weeks

Him and ozanne have some sort of bizarre mutual understanding of being total losers and loving each other for it.

Theres nothing wrong with your posts, no idea how you’ve upset them so much.

[steviewevie]

should protesters be allowed to chant "jihad"? Should Hizb ut-Tahrir be outlawed here?

[Skip997]

9 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

No, its hate speech.

Not necessarily, there is a deliberate misunderstanding of the term in the West.

“Jihad” literally means striving, or doing one's utmost.

What's hate speech about that?

I really can't understand how many people are willing to give up our freedoms without considering how it might affect them in the long term.

[squirrelarmy]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

just to make it clear the religious fanaticism is from the Israeli's.

Religion seems to be the driving factor behind Israel’s wealth. There was a “eyewitness” for the hospital incident who had a fantastic story saying the bomb was dropped by a F35 which got me wondering how is a country with a population of only 10 million funding a top of the line airforce with equal equipment to USA/UK. 
 

Had a look to see what their exports are and they’re not a producer of oil like many other Arabian states. They don’t have a natural resource to exploit.
 

They seem to be very technological based and to base your economy around high technologies means a lot of investment which does make you wonder how the country initially got their financial boost. Obviously must be people donating for the religious cause. 

[Neil]

34 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Religion seems to be the driving factor behind Israel’s wealth. There was a “eyewitness” for the hospital incident who had a fantastic story saying the bomb was dropped by a F35 which got me wondering how is a country with a population of only 10 million funding a top of the line airforce with equal equipment to USA/UK. 
 

Had a look to see what their exports are and they’re not a producer of oil like many other Arabian states. They don’t have a natural resource to exploit.
 

They seem to be very technological based and to base your economy around high technologies means a lot of investment which does make you wonder how the country initially got their financial boost. Obviously must be people donating for the religious cause. 

the USA is donating sh*t loads of weapons to Israel,  always has done, think that might be a cold war relic, Syria and Egypt got weapons from the Ussr, Jordan from the UK.

[steviewevie]

49 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Religion seems to be the driving factor behind Israel’s wealth. There was a “eyewitness” for the hospital incident who had a fantastic story saying the bomb was dropped by a F35 which got me wondering how is a country with a population of only 10 million funding a top of the line airforce with equal equipment to USA/UK. 
 

Had a look to see what their exports are and they’re not a producer of oil like many other Arabian states. They don’t have a natural resource to exploit.
 

They seem to be very technological based and to base your economy around high technologies means a lot of investment which does make you wonder how the country initially got their financial boost. Obviously must be people donating for the religious cause. 

has invested a lot in education and now has a lot of tech companies...I work for a US tech company and we have bought a few smaller Israeli companies over the years.