news & politics:discussion

[Matt42]

6 minutes ago, Mimo said:

Tories have gone populist and people have bought into it hard. It’s all very well Labour presenting themselves as the safe pair of hands ready to step in after the populism inevitably blows up in our faces, but that means waiting for things to get really bad first which just isn’t good enough. They need to present a positive progressive inclusive vision of our country and shout it from the rooftops.

Exactly - populism isn’t going anywhere for the time being. I think this was Kier’s strategy at the beginning, ‘wait for the country to see they have elected a clown’... however this has backfired. In fact the complete opposite has happened. The electorate have become more confident that Boris is the right man for the job. 

[Simsy]

26 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I have heard if a right scum label but not a centrist one?

If Labour now hate the centre then they are in real trouble and the broad church claim is a joke.

I've voted Labour at every general election and it gets harder every year.  Next election I doubt I will.  Just not a party that interests me with all its wokeyness and hating on reasonable view points.

It's all about the economy, jobs, schools, crime, security and a fair opportunity for all...

Labour offer nothing on most those fronts.  Its all benefits, statues and transgender rights.  People mostly don't think or about that stuff on a daily basis.  Major disconnect

You think Labour are all about things like statues? What about the party that brought in a law saying you're not allowed to upset a statue?

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, Mimo said:

No worries, didn’t mean to go for you so hard it was late and I was grumpy!

 

My wording was terrible it deserved a response lik yours

13 minutes ago, Mimo said:

Lammy for PM though. My campaign starts here.

 

Won't happen there's be more chance for Dianne Abbott.

13 minutes ago, Mimo said:

Labour don’t have a perfect candidate, but what they need most I think is someone who can appeal to people emotionally. TBF i think Burnham would be good too.

 

Burnham had a good pandemic and had his moment. It means less because it changed nothing.

13 minutes ago, Mimo said:

Tories have gone populist and people have bought into it hard. It’s all very well Labour presenting themselves as the safe pair of hands ready to step in after the populism inevitably blows up in our faces, but that means waiting for things to get really bad first which just isn’t good enough. They need to present a positive progressive inclusive vision of our country and shout it from the rooftops.

There's too many people who'd have issues with parts of that inclusive vision.bcause not everyone is gay or trans or black.trans rights are exclusionary of woman's rights. Rights which many woman alive today helped to fight for such as one gender hospital wards. I know someone who works in a prison and self defining trans right would create a whole load of new issues there. 

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

 

He's not trying to bring back old issues that needed to be dealt with in most people's eyes.

The way that unions used to disrupt normalise wasn't popular with large parts of the population.and the voting public want politicians who act in their interests and not in the interests of people who would kill them given half a chance corbyns support for the IRA.

[mattiloy]

13 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I have heard if a right scum label but not a centrist one?

If Labour now hate the centre then they are in real trouble and the broad church claim is a joke.

I've voted Labour at every general election and it gets harder every year.  Next election I doubt I will.  Just not a party that interests me with all its wokeyness and hating on reasonable view points.

It's all about the economy, jobs, schools, crime, security and a fair opportunity for all...

Labour offer nothing on most those fronts.  Its all benefits, statues and transgender rights.  People mostly don't think or about that stuff on a daily basis.  Major disconnect

Centrists are simply closet right wingers. Too cowardly to come out and admit it. And thats even worse tbh, at least tories are honest about their evilness

Look at Blair’s and Nick Clegg’s respective post politics careers, gilding their palms advising dictators conduct political repression in the case of the former, and being chief of sanitising facebook’s corporate image irrespective of its lack of morality.

They couldn’t give a fuck about ordinary people, they never did.

[mattiloy]

Interesting...

 

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Funny that most ordinary people voted for Blair and Boris.  Maybe your not ordinary?  Maybe your the weird one ? 

Comes back to Labour and their activists thinking they are better and know more than the people they want votes from.

Maybe you are the scum after all?

Blair and Boris and poles apart. Couldn’t be more different. Blair is a globalist neoliberal first and foremost (a thatcherite basically) and Boris is nearer national socialism so far. A fascist basically. 

[Ryan1984]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Blair and Boris and poles apart. Couldn’t be more different. Blair is a globalist neoliberal first and foremost (a thatcherite basically) and Boris is nearer national socialism so far. A fascist basically. 

Boris obviously has fascist tendencies but I think he’s more self-serving than anything else. Some of his cabinet - Patel etc - are real fascists.

[squirrelarmy]

33 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Exactly - populism isn’t going anywhere for the time being. I think this was Kier’s strategy at the beginning, ‘wait for the country to see they have elected a clown’... however this has backfired. In fact the complete opposite has happened. The electorate have become more confident that Boris is the right man for the job. 

Stupid people follow a stupid leader

[SwedgeAntilles]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

It’s not within Holyrood’s power to call an independence referendum.

 

The only valid mandate for such referendum would be a (UK wide) government elected in a general election on a pledge to hold one. I can’t see Labour or the Conservatives adding this to their manifesto any time soon so the most likely scenario would be the SNP leveraging one in a hung Parliament. 

Cry more, tory boy. 

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

And yet they get the votes and your people don't....

If Blair was so popular why did he resign?

Boris popular now. Wait <12 months when this long run financial asset bubble bursts, inflation is on the rise and unemployment starts ticking up.

[Ryan1984]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

If Blair was so popular why did he resign?

Boris popular now. Wait <12 months when this long run financial asset bubble bursts, inflation is on the rise and unemployment starts ticking up.

Still think he’ll be gone by then. Will leave with his Brexit done and the experience of ‘leading’ us through unprecedented times.

[Matt42]

44 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Centrists are simply closet right wingers. Too cowardly to come out and admit it. And thats even worse tbh, at least tories are honest about their evilness

Fucking hell man you really sound like a student politician here. This is a really really rough opinion that is actually causing the left to tank in popularity.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil mate.

[Matt42]

30 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Stupid people follow a stupid leader

So labour need to dumb down their message to win again?

[eFestivals]

32 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Stupid people follow a stupid leader

Calling the voters stupid while you Mr smart guy aren't smart enough to better the stupid

Edited May 9, 2021 by eFestivals

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Matt42 said:

Not when they seem to be the largest voting majority.

are they though? The majority of people aren't voting tory. The problem for labour is the left/centre/progressive vote is split...whereas without ukip/bxp the right vote isn't. Red wall areas need to be won back by a competent labour who can offer them a realistically better life than what they have under the tories...but meanwhile have to see how levelling up goes...because that is the tory offer.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

So labour need to dumb down their message to win again?

Labour need to lose their dumb advocates.

[steviewevie]

The arguments playing out on this thread are part of the problem for labour. Fighting themselves.

[Matt42]

Just now, steviewevie said:

The arguments playing out on this thread are part of the problem for labour. Fighting themselves.

I think it just goes to show how dire the situation is for them. It’s titanic sinking ship.

[Matt42]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Lol this 100% 

I wonder if they know how they sound to the general public.

It’s so so so toxic but they believe it so deeply.

But what I find ironic is they form this view that the right wing is this posh upper class leading workhouses. The people you’re talking about aren’t that at all - they are ordinary working class people?

It absolutely kills me that some of corbyns stans refuse to accept the demographic shift of the country. Newsflash. Majority of the middle class are probably quite left wing. Your bricklayer down the street struggling to make ends meet is probably voting Tory. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Matt42

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I think it just goes to show how dire the situation is for them. It’s titanic sinking ship.

No, they just need to stop the division. I think there is definitely a future for labour...but it's a long way back at moment. With the voting system we have they have to either work together...or work with other parties...it's the only way. If we had PR then labour could finally split and then they could fight each other in coalition government.

Johnson is making a lot of promises...but he does that...promises everything to everyone...no checks in the Irish sea etc...

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

Again 100%

I was trying to make the point they other day that the people they hate so much are the very people who where the traditional Labour vote / red wall.

Can’t blame them. I have friends who meet this exact description.

Raised in Manchester probably brought up to think it’s the rich toffs in the south which are voting the tories into power. They can’t comprehend that it’s actually the working class communities in Bolton.

Actually no - not that they can’t comprehend... they put their fingers in their ears and ignore it as their narrative doesn’t work anymore.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Matt42

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

It’s so so so toxic but they believe it so deeply.

But what I find ironic is they form this view that the right wing is this posh upper class leading workhouses. The people you’re talking about aren’t that at all - they are ordinary working class people?

It absolutely kills me that some of corbyns stans refuse to accept the demographic shift of the country. Newsflash. Majority of the middle class are probably quite left wing. Your bricklayer down the street struggling to make ends meet is probably voting Tory. 

I know you love this shit Matt..you kept banging on about it with Trump...good old working class people being socially conservative...real people (i.e. white people)...salt of the earth....but not all working class live in Hartlepool.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

Can’t blame them. I have friends who meet this exact description.

Raised in Manchester probably brought up to think it’s the rich toffs in the south which are voting the tories into power. They can’t comprehend that it’s actually the working class communities in Bolton.

Actually no - not that they can’t comprehend... they put their fingers in their ears and ignore it as their narrative doesn’t work anymore.

why you bring up Manchester?

[Matt42]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

why you bring up Manchester?

Read what I said again. Friends of mine from Manchester and Liverpool have it drummed into them that a Tory is a rich upper class toff. They struggle to comprehend that someone from the complete opposite side of the class scale would be a proud Tory voter.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Matt42