news & politics:discussion

[mattiloy]

9 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

More than a faux pas, it was racist. He wouldn’t have said it if it was an evil white Home Secretary. She may be a cow but she’s British.

Depends if you think he said we should deport Priti Patel specifically because she isn’t from a white British background or if he’d have made the same remark if the home secretary were Michael Gove. If so thats thoughtlessness rather than racism.

[LJS]

50 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

More than a faux pas, it was racist. He wouldn’t have said it if it was an evil white Home Secretary. She may be a cow but she’s British.

 

40 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Fuck Beckett, he's one guy. Continue to direct your anger at what the HO did today. 

Both of these views can be correct.

[zahidf]

 

[LJS]

20 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

His tweet was ill-judged & crass. I think it falls some way short of being a hate crime.

[zahidf]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

His tweet was ill-judged & crass. I think it falls some way short of being a hate crime.

Let's see what the legal professionals say

 

Probably shouldn't say am Asian person should be deported for her views though.

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Let's see what the legal professionals say

 

Probably shouldn't say am Asian person should be deported for her views though.

Yup. I am in no way defending his tweet.

[topmarksbri]

8 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Depends if you think he said we should deport Priti Patel specifically because she isn’t from a white British background or if he’d have made the same remark if the home secretary were Michael Gove. If so thats thoughtlessness rather than racism.

I think it’s more cut and dry than this, calling for someone who it British but of Asian descent is racist. We can’t guess the intentions behind it so have to take it at face value and I think if it was a Tory saying this none of us would give them benefit of doubt. 
 

Mind you, they kept voting for Len who’s hardly a man of outstanding moral fibre so…

[Fuzzy Afro]

You can’t deport a British person. So the wording of the tweet suggests that Beckett sees Patel as not being a Brit given her race. That’s what makes it racist. No chance that he’d say Raab or Rees-Mogg or Gove should be deported. 

[worthyraver]

12 hours ago, mattiloy said:

His strategy was avoidance and submission regards the false antisemitism smears from that and culminating in Corbyn's sacking. And look to Israel now and see the effects of the world being too shit scared to call out apartheit for what it is. The latter also triggered a mass exodus of labour members (apparently nearly 200k have left since late 2019, not all shown up in official figures yet because the only way to cancel your labour membership is to cancel your direct debit and you only fall off their official figures after 6 months of not paying your DD and they only release the official figures once yearly in their annual report). 200k members paying upto around 60 quid a year is a lot of moolah. Also I believe Unite stopped giving them any cash after the Corbyn incident. They've had some shady strings very much attached cash from dodgy Blair era donors but he's fucked it tbh

The quickest way to leave The Labour Party or any political party is to join another one, this is how I left The Labour Party I joined The Green Party and cancelled my direct debit.

[Fuzzy Afro]

4 minutes ago, worthyraver said:

The quickest way to leave The Labour Party or any political party is to join another one, this is how I left The Labour Party I joined The Green Party and cancelled my direct debit.

Yeah but they won’t have recognised you as not being a member for 6 months. I joined in order to vote in the leadership election last year (voted for Nandy) and stopped paying my DD after the results were announced. I’m still on the email list of the constituency party. 

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, worthyraver said:

The quickest way to leave The Labour Party or any political party is to join another one, this is how I left The Labour Party I joined The Green Party and cancelled my direct debit.

Must feel very worthy, but with our electoral system the split vote on the left just helps the Tories stay in power .

[worthyraver]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Must feel very worthy, but with our electoral system the split vote on the left just helps the Tories stay in power .

Good one and before 8am 🙂

Probably true but currently there is no way I could see myself voting for Starmer.

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Must feel very worthy, but with our electoral system the split vote on the left just helps the Tories stay in power .

The Green party is the only viable left vote in England.

48 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

I think if it was a Tory saying this none of us would give them benefit of doubt. 
 

Also if it were Charlotte Nichols MP wanting to ’stop traveller incursions’. Or Angela Smith talking about people with a ’funny tinge’. There are double standards for those on the left of the labour party and everybody else. The rest can claim ignorance and the world moves on, but not the left.

[Fuzzy Afro]

4 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The Green party is the only viable left vote in England.

Also if it were Charlotte Nichols MP wanting to ’stop traveller incursions’. Or Angela Smith talking about people with a ’funny tinge’. There are double standards for those on the left of the labour party and everybody else. The rest can claim ignorance and the world moves on, but not the left.

You know Angela Smith got in a lot of trouble for the funny tinge comment? 

[topmarksbri]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Also if it were Charlotte Nichols MP wanting to ’stop traveller incursions’. Or Angela Smith talking about people with a ’funny tinge’. There are double standards for those on the left of the labour party and everybody else. The rest can claim ignorance and the world moves on, but not the left.

I agree, the left and the Labour Party as a whole are held to a different standard to everyone else and the people above should have faced disciplinary action. But the answer is to hold everyone up to the standards the left are held to, not to lower standards.

[steviewevie]

30 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The Green party is the only viable left vote in England.

1 hour ago, topmarksbri said:

yeah, and it if it helps you feel all righteous and that you're somehow saving the planet, go ahead and vote for them...but unless they have an actual chance of beating a tory MP it will just keep the tories in power....but I guess Johnson's missus likes animals and stuff so we'll probably be fine. I would rather vote green too at the moment, I did in the local elections recently...but in a general election you have to vote tactically.

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, and it if it helps you feel all righteous and that you're somehow saving the planet, go ahead and vote for them...but unless they have an actual chance of beating a tory MP it will just keep the tories in power....but I guess Johnson's missus likes animals and stuff so we'll probably be fine. I would rather vote green too at the moment, I did in the local elections recently...but in a general election you have to vote tactically.

Without a leadership election in the Labour party and a swift change in direction, greens to reach a critical mass of c. 15% in a voting intention poll in the next year and then it becomes credible that they could usurp the Labour party in many seats and they climb to 20% with Labour also on around 20% going into the next GE, Lib Dems on around 4% and all but the rapidly degenerating Labour party will want to do a progressive alliance with PR as a condition for coalition. You 'erd it ere furst!! There is a precedent all over Europe- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification

 

[mattiloy]

[Fuzzy Afro]

11 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Without a leadership election in the Labour party and a swift change in direction, greens to reach a critical mass of c. 15% in a voting intention poll in the next year and then it becomes credible that they could usurp the Labour party in many seats and they climb to 20% with Labour also on around 20% going into the next GE, Lib Dems on around 4% and all but the rapidly degenerating Labour party will want to do a progressive alliance with PR as a condition for coalition. You 'erd it ere furst!! There is a precedent all over Europe- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification

 

When push comes to shove, the vast majority of the left will hold their noses and vote Labour in a general election.

 

Voting for minor left wing parties is a great way to keep the Tories in power. Same way that Labour would benefit from a split in the right wing if Farage was to regain support.

 

The reason left wingers have done well in other European countries is that they have proportional systems so people can genuinely vote for the party that best represents their views.

 

In the UK we have FPTP which is a winner take all system. The left can’t afford to split the vote so they need to coalesce around a single unity candidate who can unite centrists and left wingers. The soft-left provides an obvious home for this unity candidate which is why Starmer was selected. It’s also why Joe Biden was selected in the States.

 

My gut feeling is Andy Burnham is a better option than Keir Starmer, despite both being soft left Brownites. Burnham is just a better man of the people. 

[mattiloy]

19 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

When push comes to shove, the vast majority of the left will hold their noses and vote Labour in a general election.

 

Voting for minor left wing parties is a great way to keep the Tories in power. Same way that Labour would benefit from a split in the right wing if Farage was to regain support.

 

The reason left wingers have done well in other European countries is that they have proportional systems so people can genuinely vote for the party that best represents their views.

Agree to disagree. Every passing year of middle the road politics has iteratively exacerbated the need for radical change. Politics reacts to the sentiment of the day. It isn’t the 90s anymore, the Labour party is not fit for purpose and seems disinterested in changing to meet voters where they are*. We are stood on the precipice. The 2020s will be a decade of tectonic shifts in British politics.

 

* a point in case is pursuing a 2% payrise for nurses. If Starmer can’t see that even after the big spending of covid, a say 5% payrise for nurses would be popular policy and in fact quite affordable (because of the multiplier effect) then its a good sign of how out of touch with the electorate, and indeed the economics that supposedly ought to underpin their politics, They have become. Its a solid example of how they are fast becoming the party of noone, the party of nothing.

Edited May 14, 2021 by mattiloy

[Fuzzy Afro]

18 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Agree to disagree. Every passing year of middle the road politics has iteratively exacerbated the need for radical change. Politics reacts to the sentiment of the day. It isn’t the 90s anymore, the Labour party is not fit for purpose and seems disinterested in changing to meet voters where they are*. We are stood on the precipice. The 2020s will be a decade of tectonic shifts in British politics.

 

* a point in case is pursuing a 2% payrise for nurses. If Starmer can’t see that even after the big spending of covid, a say 5% payrise for nurses would be popular policy and in fact quite affordable (because of the multiplier effect) then its a good sign of how out of touch with the electorate, and indeed the economics that supposedly ought to underpin their politics, They have become. Its a solid example of how they are fast becoming the party of noone, the party of nothing.

You’re not wrong on the nurses point. I’d be even more ambitious and go for 8%-10%, it would be a highly popular policy.

 

To be honest what Labour need to do is come out and do focus groups on what is actually popular. I think there is a possibility to win by pairing more left wing economic policies with socially conservative positions on things like immigration.

 

I read a story last week about a focus group Dominic Cummings had done with Tory voters. They started with an unremarkable 20 minute discussion on immigration. After that, they moved on to the economy and Cummings was surprised by some of the comments made in the first few minutes. After becoming increasingly surprised he asked the voters who they voted for and the entire group said Labour. The company who organised the group had screwed up.

 

Moral of the story is that he was completely unable to identify the fact they were Labour voters from the immigration discussion. They made comments that were exactly in line with what Tory and UKIP voters would say. 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Without a leadership election in the Labour party and a swift change in direction, greens to reach a critical mass of c. 15% in a voting intention poll in the next year and then it becomes credible that they could usurp the Labour party in many seats and they climb to 20% with Labour also on around 20% going into the next GE, Lib Dems on around 4% and all but the rapidly degenerating Labour party will want to do a progressive alliance with PR as a condition for coalition. You 'erd it ere furst!! There is a precedent all over Europe- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasokification

 

you really think they're going to replace Starmer with someone more left wing?

[steviewevie]

If the left vote is split, tories will win. When brexit party stood down in all those seats in 2019 that was a disaster for labour...the leave/right vote would have been split otherwise. Meanwhile the Greens are hardly socialist, and are very pro EU and I expect would be the only party pushing to rejoin...but yeah, they haven't got starmer who was horrid to corbyn.

[DeanoL]

17 hours ago, hfuhruhurr said:

friend of mine - on NHS waiting list, end of June for earliest appt. Asked about going private, booked in for next Tuesday.

Same fucking equipment, same doctor, same hospital.

How about there's a ban on private health for 12 months or until the backlog is fixed?

There sort of has been, to an extent - lots of private hospitals were basically sold space to the government during COVID. You were still better off if you got ill with something else having private insurance the past year, but certainly didn't get the quality of care you would have in normal times.

11 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

More than a faux pas, it was racist. He wouldn’t have said it if it was an evil white Home Secretary. She may be a cow but she’s British.

No, I think he would have absolutely said that about any Home Secretary making those comments. That's not a mistake you make. He knows she's British, what he did was completely blank of the optics of her not being white. It's any easy trap to fall in to - thinking that treating everyone exactly the same means you're safe from saying anything racist. Not defending it, he's rightly in trouble, but the idea that it came some closeted racist viewpoint rather than by him treating her exactly the same as he would anyone saying those things is flawed I think.

 

[squirrelarmy]

20 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

you really think they're going to replace Starmer with someone more left wing?

He lives in that same fantasy world as Corbyn where they think the country will magically turn left wing if they have a left leader.