news & politics:discussion

[Fuzzy Afro]

Labour need to get Valerie Vaz suspended from the whip ASAP

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Private schools hoover up the best teachers so they aren't teaching in the public sector. Those teachers are trained by the public sector so the private schools are also a financial drain on public education.

So whilst abolishing them immediately would put potentially disastrous pressure on the public system if they could be phased out it could be beneficial in the long run.

As you say things aren't as simple as they first look, any plan to abolish private education would be a very difficult policy to get right and there are plenty of ways that it could make things worse and it always safer to stick with the status quo as it works.

Define "works"!

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

That isn't actually true.   A lot of the teachers in the private sector are not the best at all and have half the job and challenges of public sector teachers - hence good results are fair easier to obtain.

Yeah, I went to a grammar school and the teachers were broadly in three categories:

1) amazing teachers that would be amazing anywhere

2) shit teachers that would be shit anywhere but could get away with it more easily at a grammar school as enough of the kids were self-sufficient they still got broadly decent grades

3) amazing teachers that would utterly fall apart in a comprehensive environment, because they know and love their subject and can teach it so well but had zero skills in controlling kids - my maths teacher was the best teacher I ever had but he couldn't even cope with teaching the bottom set at the grammar school!

[mcshed]

10 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Define "works"!

Well yes but there in lies a problem for Labour, for most people the country works. Sure it could be better, fairer more prosperous but for most people their lives are fine and the idea of drastic overhaul can be worrying.

[mattiloy]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

However, wouldn’t you say it’s a perfectly rational position that people who work hard and are talented should be rewarded and allowed to earn a very good life for themselves and their families while also believing in a minimum standard of living and universal healthcare and education for all?

 

That should be an uncontroversial position but it seems like anyone who doesn’t believe in all out equality is a raging far right fascist. 

The trouble is modern capitalism doesn’t allocate rewards to people based on their contribution to the overall wellbeing of mankind. It rewards greed and some people’s ambition to be dominant over and to position themselves above others in society. Thus it in fact it often rewards most those whose contribution is simply to worsen the material conditions of other people. It is a poor system.

Further, if it somebody is blessed with innate talents and conscientiousness, then it costs that person less (in terms of effort) to contribute as much as they do, so the job at hand is easy, so they might feel like they don’t require additional payment. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by mattiloy

[fraybentos1]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The trouble is modern capitalism doesn’t allocate rewards to people based on their contribution to the overall wellbeing of mankind. It rewards greed and some people’s ambition to be dominant over and to position themselves above others in society. Thus it in fact it often rewards most those whose contribution is simply to worsen the material conditions of other people. It is a poor system.

Further, if it somebody is blessed with innate talents and conscientiousness, then it costs that person less (in terms of effort) to contribute as much as they do, so the job at hand is easy, so they might feel like they don’t require additional payment. 

Are you not a banker? You can't hate capitalism that much 😅

[steviewevie]

Maybe abolish private schools and spend more on state schools.

[steviewevie]

So, who's going to replace Starmer..?

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

So, who's going to replace Starmer..?

 

No one, his rating’s on the rise 😉

[Guest]

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

[Glastoboy]

13 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Corbyn wanted to ban private schools.

 

From a “fairness” point of view, great policy.

 

However what that would lead to is overloaded class sizes and a drop in quality for everyone. One of the benefits of private education (and private healthcare) is that it reduces the burden on the state and thus allows them to increase the quality of the education available to those who haven’t opted out of the system.

 

Getting rid of private schools is the sort of overly simplistic policy that would actually hinder everyone. No one would benefit from this. 

 

I usually agree with your stances on here Fuzzy. But I disagree with you a bit on this and think the idea should be explored further.

Imagine if private school students were thrown in and reared in a state school environment along with us plebs. The very thought is funny as fuck for the 'elite' but in all seriousness they'd experience a totally different upbringing, especially when compared to the same-sex boarding schools they would ordinarily attend.

But also imagine the rich parents (who were quite happy to stump up eye-watering school fees and now have a bit of 'extra' cash) turn their noses up at the state of the schools and soon join forces with the pushy parents and pta volunteers to whip their schools into shape.

All students would sit the same exams and be graded against eachother equally. Sure, parents could pay for extra private tuition as well but money can only get people so far if their kid's 'not too bright'. Although, via their family connections and nepotism the 'elite' will still end up running the world in some capacity. No amount of tinkering with the education system will ever change that fact.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Glastoboy

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Glastoboy said:

 

I usually agree with your stances on here Fuzzy. But I disagree with you a bit on this and think the idea should be explored further.

Imagine if private school students were thrown in and reared in a state school environment along with us plebs. The very thought is funny as fuck for the 'elite' but in all seriousness they'd experience a totally different upbringing, especially when compared to the same-sex boarding schools they would ordinarily attend.

But also imagine the rich parents (who were quite happy to stump up eye-watering school fees and now have a bit of 'extra' cash) turn their noses up at the state of the schools and soon join forces with the pushy parents and pta volunteers to whip their schools into shape.

All students would sit the same exams and be graded against eachother equally. Sure, parents could pay for extra private tuition as well but money can only get people so far if their kid's 'not too bright'. Although, via their family connections and nepotism the 'elite' will still end up running the world in some capacity. No amount of tinkering with the education system will ever change that fact.

I think it's only Finland, Cuba and N Korea that have don't have private education....so it would be pretty bloody radical if happened here. So anyway, won't happen, the voters of Hartlepool would never agree to it.

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Corbyn wanted to ban private schools.

 

From a “fairness” point of view, great policy.

 

However what that would lead to is overloaded class sizes and a drop in quality for everyone. One of the benefits of private education (and private healthcare) is that it reduces the burden on the state and thus allows them to increase the quality of the education available to those who haven’t opted out of the system.

 

Getting rid of private schools is the sort of overly simplistic policy that would actually hinder everyone. No one would benefit from this. 

To equalise outcomes for kids he would also need to ban better parenting. It's never quite clear whether the left believe in meritocracy or not. I think there's a number of things the left need to better express their position. Immigration would be one where they need to say what would be too much immigration to close off the attack that they'd just let everyone in.....

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I think it's only Finland, Cuba and N Korea that have don't have private education....so it would be pretty bloody radical if happened here. So anyway, won't happen, the voters of Hartlepool would never agree to it.

Finland’s education system is also widely regarded as the very best in Europe for outcomes...

And kids start school at 7 and take critical thinking classes including how to identify fake news. So yeah, the tories will lever let it happen - th results are indeed borne out as Finland also has a female 30 year old left winger as PM.

[worthyraver]

17 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

Are you not a banker? You can't hate capitalism that much 😅

Bringing down the system from within

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

Are banks not allowed in socialism?

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

 

Won’t cut through 

[mattiloy]

11 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

The kids from these backgrounds will still have on average the best support / equipment / resources / family environments / private tutoring etc.

Stick them in the state system and your top sets will be full of them with the current top set kids pushed down.  You would would have to increase the size of schools to accommodate these extra children with no extra tax income unless you raised taxes.  Anyone with half brain knows the wealthy avoid tax increases anyway so the burden will fall on the middle classes.  So you end just screwing more kids over on average.

Basically its a shit idea.

Finland also doesn’t set their kids.

 

When you stream kids at such a young age based on their discipline to study and retain facts for a few tests, you are not testing their ability.

If you design society based on rewarding the kids whose destiny as captains of industry and leaders of society was decided whilst they were still prone to the odd pissing of the bed theres something wrong. The correlation between innate ability (the testing of which is problematic on its own tbh but anyway) and exam success is surprisingly low in most studies.
 

Imo schools should apportion as much time to developing kids life skills, their critical thinking and their mental health. A generation of kids who maybe don’t know surds (but maybe a few who have an interest in maths might) but all are confident, empowered, curious and independently minded, that would be a much more valuable cohort to my mind.

I think one thing private education, and indeed wealth generally, breeds is confidence. This is probably the most material difference. The expectation that you will achieve, and the comfort that you are insulated from negative consequences if you don’t.

Edited May 25, 2021 by mattiloy

[maelzoid]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

Boris claiming in print that women wearing the burka look ridiculous (def: inviting or worthy of ridicule and mockery) and then refusing to apologise are not the actions of someone who is not bigoted. Only a couple of years later he got voted into the top job.

Why? Because this kind of messaging plays well to a lot of people in this country.

Boris' bigotry is a feature not a bug.

[maelzoid]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Imo schools should apportion as much time to developing kids life skills, their critical thinking and their mental health. A generation of kids who maybe don’t know surds (but maybe a few who have an interest in maths might) but all are confident, empowered, curious and independently minded, that would be a much more valuable cohort to my mind.

I like this a lot.

The sad truth is that a lot of adults lack what many of us consider fairly basic life skills, probably because nobody taught them, and they in turn cannot teach their own kids. Stuff like nutrition and how to cook, how to deal with personal finances including taxes and pensions, developing a healthy exercise habit, basic numeracy and literacy, simple household repairs. All the stuff needed to be self sufficient and in control of one's life, which in turn breeds confidence and resilience. It's time we stop assuming that these lessons will always come from home, and for many kids who are looking at leaving school at 16, this is far more useful than a purely academic education.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

Boris claiming in print that women wearing the burka look ridiculous (def: inviting or worthy of ridicule and mockery) and then refusing to apologise are not the actions of someone who is not bigoted. Only a couple of years later he got voted into the top job.

Why? Because this kind of messaging plays well to a lot of people in this country.

Boris' bigotry is a feature not a bug.

You are right, this will sadly make no difference to Johnson’s and the Tories poll ratings at all. 

[Zacko]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

CON +10

[DeanoL]

23 hours ago, mcshed said:

Well yes but there in lies a problem for Labour, for most people the country works. Sure it could be better, fairer more prosperous but for most people their lives are fine and the idea of drastic overhaul can be worrying.

Yeah. And "conservative" literally means "little change"

13 hours ago, Glastoboy said:

Imagine if private school students were thrown in and reared in a state school environment along with us plebs. The very thought is funny as fuck for the 'elite' but in all seriousness they'd experience a totally different upbringing, especially when compared to the same-sex boarding schools they would ordinarily attend.

Yup - the issues with private schools go beyond just who has the best education. It's instilling a sense of entitlement and unwarranted self-belief.

I do sometimes wonder if there's a clever way around it - like if you have private schools and private tuition you have to do some sort of military or social service.

13 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

The kids from these backgrounds will still have on average the best support / equipment / resources / family environments / private tutoring etc.

Stick them in the state system and your top sets will be full of them with the current top set kids pushed down.  You would would have to increase the size of schools to accommodate these extra children with no extra tax income unless you raised taxes.  Anyone with half brain knows the wealthy avoid tax increases anyway so the burden will fall on the middle classes.  So you end just screwing more kids over on average.

You'd have to look at restructuring schools entirely to cater for kids with different needs. It'd be really hard, but certainly not impossible.

[Andre91]

Finland's education system is a marvelous thing. I did a whole unit on it when I did Education Studies at undergrad. It fascinated me then and still does now. I learned so much from that unit.