news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

15 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I don’t think it will have cut through tbh. The opposition just isn’t there. And wasn’t there at the time. Labour is complicit.

I don't know...this govt is dragging us to the cultural right...we're led by a clown who is meeting a potential new allie in Orban on Friday, and yet all you can do is criticise labour or some remainy/liberal twitterers because they may have been critical of Corbyn in the past. The left is so fucked.

[mattiloy]

53 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I don't know...this govt is dragging us to the cultural right...we're led by a clown who is meeting a potential new allie in Orban on Friday, and yet all you can do is criticise labour or some remainy/liberal twitterers because they may have been critical of Corbyn in the past. The left is so fucked.

It doesn’t matter though. If I and every other ’looney left’ ’trot’ ’militant’ ’hard left’ ’extreme left’ shuts up about Starmer and the influence of silly commentators, Labour will still lose.

Before Labour even contemplates the possibility of winning an election the ghost of New Labour that currently haunts the party needs to be exorcised once and for all, including half the PLP. The rules need to be changed to enshrine the dominance of members over any other branch of the party in internal affairs.
 

Finally, it needs to stand upto the agenda’d liberal media, the lonely, empty, know-it-all understand-nothings, who sit and sneer, and smear, from the sidelines like Dunt does. The guardian is a liberal newspaper. Its commentators commentate from a liberal position, largely a lib dem position, they are not balanced and actively undermine the social democratic platform.

The fight for the labour party, or indeed whatever comes after it, has to take precedence over the fight vs the tories, because the latter is not winnable before the former is won.

Edited May 26, 2021 by mattiloy

[maelzoid]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Before Labour even contemplates the possibility of winning an election the ghost of New Labour that currently haunts the party needs to be exorcised once and for all, including half the PLP. The rules need to be changed to enshrine the dominance of members over any other branch of the party in internal affairs.

Only one man has won the GE for labour in the last 45 years: Tony Blair. New Labour remains the only successful incarnation of the Labour Party in 45 years.

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Cons +10

In all serious no...  I think Hancock is fucked.  Most people see Boris as an idiot who has been badly advised - and there is some truth around that - enough to keep him alive for now probably.  I don't see him leading the tories into the next election anyway.

Hancock was always going to be thrown under the bus been obvious for at least a year is spaffer does it now it can be used to deflect from much of the Cummings stuff. It's all a game to all of threm it's not about doing what's right for the country. 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

Only one man has won the GE for labour in the last 45 years: Tony Blair. New Labour remains the only successful incarnation of the Labour Party in 45 years.

And alongside that the biggest failures have been when the lunatics have taken over the asylum. 

[steviewevie]

 

[mattiloy]

42 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

Only one man has won the GE for labour in the last 45 years: Tony Blair. New Labour remains the only successful incarnation of the Labour Party in 45 years.

Yes I’m aware, so sayeth centrist Dads of Britain everywhere. Nothing can ever happen other than the things that have occured in your voting lifetime and the Labour party is doomed to this neverending cycle of kinnocks and foots and Blairs. Its been happening since the stone age, caveman kinnock, caveman foot, caveman Benn, some militant cavemen and then caveman Blair saved us all.

By the next general election 1997 will be 27 years in the past.

Long enough so that what, a good third?, of the people who voted in 1997 will be dead given the age distribution of voters and life expectancy.

Tony Blair took leadership of the party not long after the end of the cold war. The cold war! The internet was of little concern to anybody. Nigel Farage was still working as a stockbroker. The Euro didnt exist. Hong Kong was a british colony - suffice to say the world has changed.

Disillusionment with third way politics is what delivered Brexit. And New Labours solution to win back those voters who plainly reject the neoliberal consensus of the 80s and 90s.

When even the right wing party is posing as a radical, reforming party (if only on messaging, as they certainly aren’t delivering) surely its a fairly good sign that there is something in it

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Yes I’m aware, so sayeth centrist Dads of Britain everywhere. Nothing can ever happen other than the things that have occured in your voting lifetime and the Labour party is doomed to this neverending cycle of kinnocks and foots and Blairs. Its been happening since the stone age, caveman kinnock, caveman foot, caveman Benn, some militant cavemen and then caveman Blair saved us all.

By the next general election 1997 will be 27 years in the past.

 

The next election corbyns politics will be fifty years in the past.

 

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Long enough so that what, a good third?, of the people who voted in 1997 will be dead given the age distribution of voters and life expectancy.

Tony Blair took leadership of the party not long after the end of the cold war. The cold war! The internet was of little concern to anybody. Nigel Farage was still working as a stockbroker. The Euro didnt exist. Hong Kong was a british colony - suffice to say the world has changed.

Disillusionment with third way politics is what delivered Brexit. And New Labours solution to win back those voters who plainly reject the neoliberal consensus of the 80s and 90s.

When even the right wing party is posing as a radical, reforming party (if only on messaging, as they certainly aren’t delivering) surely its a fairly good sign that there is something in it

 

 

 

 

[worthyraver]

12 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Before Labour even contemplates the possibility of winning an election the ghost of New Labour that currently haunts the party needs to be exorcised once and for all, including half the PLP. The rules need to be changed to enshrine the dominance of members over any other branch of the party in internal affairs.

I would love to see this happen, but I don't see it too many have a vested interest in the status quo 😞

[hfuhruhurr]

8 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Disillusionment with third way politics is what delivered Brexit.

Er, no. That'll be the SNP delivering Brexit. A set of dominoes that got labour out of Scotland (can't win Westminster without Scotland), the subsequent rise of English nationalism in response to the Scottish argument (identity/breaking away from a controlling power/all that bollocks), the opportunity from the financial crash creating a need for people to blame something. Couple that with a dope who thought Tony Benn was always right (he was so wrong on Europe). Absolutely stupid, but that's what kicked it off - frickin SNP bollocks - the value system of separatism, ugly values. 

If you want the Tories in power forever then the recipe is in Blair's New Statesman article - and labour are following that plan perfectly. They will for at least another election and then, as always, realise they need votes of centrist Mums and Dads to get in, and will appeal to them again. Sad times, we're at the bottom of the sine curve with Corbyn, we're flatlining with Starmer (I really hoped he'd have some wit, but alas, he prepares, delivers and bores). We need someone with flair and wit and preferably one of the super talented, massively intelligent women in the labour party.

[Ryan1984]

 

[eFestivals]

Cummings thinks he's the smartest guy in Westminster but is the last guy to realise that spaffer is unfit to be PM.

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Er, no. That'll be the SNP delivering Brexit. A set of dominoes that got labour out of Scotland (can't win Westminster without Scotland), the subsequent rise of English nationalism in response to the Scottish argument (identity/breaking away from a controlling power/all that bollocks), the opportunity from the financial crash creating a need for people to blame something. Couple that with a dope who thought Tony Benn was always right (he was so wrong on Europe). Absolutely stupid, but that's what kicked it off - frickin SNP bollocks - the value system of separatism, ugly values. 

 

If that were true, euroscepticism would be a UK phenomenon. It isn’t. It is everywhere. It is also in the USA manifesting as Trumpism.

The neoliberal consensus, built on a phony meritocracy, has seen the great concentration of wealth amongst the capitalists but also professional and particularly administrative classes dwelling in cities and leafy suburbs. Concurrently it has overseen the decimation of traditional industries, skilled technical jobs folk could be proud of, and the towns in which they were based.

There are few tangible examples of things the EU does for those people - advantageous trade conditions is such a nebulous concept for most, and things like erasmus are mainly going to benefit the spawn of those leafy suburb dwellers.

Instead the EU was identified with globalisation which was and remains the chief foe of those who voted leave.

If Labour pursues a 90s third way agenda, they will wither on the vine. The only ones who will vote for that are the leafy suburb dwelling middle aged beneficiaries. And there are fewer of them than there are the other.

[hfuhruhurr]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The neoliberal consensus, built on a phony meritocracy

It might be phoney, but everyone has bought into it - it's been sold to us. No one wants to be "working class", we want to aspire to be more than that. We vote for something better. Even if we remain the same, it doesn't matter.

The people who would most benefit from socialism are the people who never vote. And as everyone knows, socialism only works if everyone is a socialist. That's never happened anywhere, so the whole concept is utter balls. I want to be poorer than you isn't a proposition that sells. Even attacking the rich doesn't sell. Only being personally better off sells.

As for the EU - a fabulous project. But we're out, and I can absolutely guarantee that it'll be the poor that will get poorer as a result. Co-operate or compete - co-operation wins every single time. Competition creates very few winners and a shit load of losers, and those losers will be the vote leavers who think they see greener grass. They were losing before and on this new global stage, the competition only got worse.

[Haan]

21 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Co-operate or compete - co-operation wins every single time. Competition creates very few winners and a shit load of losers,

Thank you Karl Marx

[maelzoid]

16 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Yes I’m aware, so sayeth centrist Dads of Britain everywhere. Nothing can ever happen other than the things that have occured in your voting lifetime and the Labour party is doomed to this neverending cycle of kinnocks and foots and Blairs. Its been happening since the stone age, caveman kinnock, caveman foot, caveman Benn, some militant cavemen and then caveman Blair saved us all.

By the next general election 1997 will be 27 years in the past.

Long enough so that what, a good third?, of the people who voted in 1997 will be dead given the age distribution of voters and life expectancy.

Tony Blair took leadership of the party not long after the end of the cold war. The cold war! The internet was of little concern to anybody. Nigel Farage was still working as a stockbroker. The Euro didnt exist. Hong Kong was a british colony - suffice to say the world has changed.

Disillusionment with third way politics is what delivered Brexit. And New Labours solution to win back those voters who plainly reject the neoliberal consensus of the 80s and 90s.

When even the right wing party is posing as a radical, reforming party (if only on messaging, as they certainly aren’t delivering) surely its a fairly good sign that there is something in it

I think you're missing my point, which is this country leans far righter than a lot of people want to admit, and as such no one left of centre really has a chance of forming a government. The tories have offered us shocking leaders like BoJo, and yet he walked over Corbyn on election day, because this country just does not want a remotely socialist government. If Labour want to win, they need to claim the centre, not shrink away from it.

I don't like this situation by the way - I wish we were a more progressive country, but we're not, and I'm not going to carry on in ignorance convincing myself that all is needed is a charismatic leader and a left-leaning labour can win.

[Fuzzy Afro]

4 hours ago, maelzoid said:

I think you're missing my point, which is this country leans far righter than a lot of people want to admit, and as such no one left of centre really has a chance of forming a government. The tories have offered us shocking leaders like BoJo, and yet he walked over Corbyn on election day, because this country just does not want a remotely socialist government. If Labour want to win, they need to claim the centre, not shrink away from it.

I don't like this situation by the way - I wish we were a more progressive country, but we're not, and I'm not going to carry on in ignorance convincing myself that all is needed is a charismatic leader and a left-leaning labour can win.

The country doesn't actually lean right. The centre-right vote is just more united.

[steviewevie]

😄

[Fuzzy Afro]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

😄

All political advisers are just mercenaries. He’s not an actual politician so this is not a surprise.

 

I’ve been saying for years that Labour should give Lyndon Crosby and Isaac Levido a blank cheque to work on the next GE campaign. These guys aren’t ideological Tories, they’re just the best strategists in the game and the Tories pay them a fortune to do so. 

[mattiloy]

10 hours ago, hfuhruhurr said:

It might be phoney, but everyone has bought into it - it's been sold to us. No one wants to be "working class", we want to aspire to be more than that. We vote for something better. Even if we remain the same, it doesn't matter.

The people who would most benefit from socialism are the people who never vote. And as everyone knows, socialism only works if everyone is a socialist. That's never happened anywhere, so the whole concept is utter balls. I want to be poorer than you isn't a proposition that sells. Even attacking the rich doesn't sell. Only being personally better off sells.

As for the EU - a fabulous project. But we're out, and I can absolutely guarantee that it'll be the poor that will get poorer as a result. Co-operate or compete - co-operation wins every single time. Competition creates very few winners and a shit load of losers, and those losers will be the vote leavers who think they see greener grass. They were losing before and on this new global stage, the competition only got worse.

Au contraire. Everybody wants to be working class. You go to B&Q on a saturday and then go to an office block and see which is busier. People literally pay to do building and joining and gardening in their spare time. The same cannot be said of administrative jobs.

So what you mean is that nobody wants to be on shit wages or have shit working conditions. But the solution is not to make everybody an accountant. A drastic increase in the minimum wage and a higher top rate of tax. Maybe UBI. Launch a national education service to subsidise non-academic, and vocational courses. Reform the professional bodies which act as latter day guilds to put up barriers to entry to certain professions to maintain unreasonably high wages - make it much easier to qualify (accountants, lawyers, architects - expose them to the free market, see how they like it).

The rest of your post I’m not sure if you’re fishing for a reaction because the arguments are so inconsistent and illogical that it is surely a trap to rile me, so I won’t take it on. And if not, then the arguments are so inconsistent and illogical that it shows an author who has such a poor grasp of the world that its pointless engaging, I may as well be debating a snail.

Edited May 27, 2021 by mattiloy

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Au contraire. Everybody wants to be working class. You go to B&Q on a saturday and then go to an office block and see which is busier. People literally pay to do building and joining and gardening in their spare time. The same cannot be said of administrative jobs.

 You're missing the point the visit to B&Q is about improving their lives, the aspiration, you and some labour strategists don't want people to have.

 

6 hours ago, mattiloy said:

So what you mean is that nobody

wants to be on shit wages or have shit working conditions. But the solution is not to make everybody an accountant. A drastic increase in the minimum wage and a higher top rate of tax. Maybe UBI. 

 

People don't want handouts they want to do it for themselves see above.

 

6 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

Launch a national education service to subsidise non-academic, and vocational courses. Reform the professional bodies which act as latter day guilds to put up barriers to entry to certain professions to maintain unreasonably high wages -

 

So you're against unions then cos that's what they are.

 

6 hours ago, mattiloy said:

make it much easier to qualify (accountants, lawyers, architects - expose them to the free market, see how they like it).

The rest of your post I’m not sure if you’re fishing for a reaction because the arguments are so inconsistent and illogical that it is surely a trap to rile me, so I won’t take it on. And if not, then the arguments are so inconsistent and illogical that it shows an author who has such a poor grasp of the world that its pointless engaging, I may as well be debating a snail.

Sounds to me like you're riled by people having their own opinions and ideas.

[topmarksbri]

12 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I’ve been saying for years that Labour should give Lyndon Crosby and Isaac Levido a blank cheque to work on the next GE campaign. These guys aren’t ideological Tories, they’re just the best strategists in the game and the Tories pay them a fortune to do so. 

Lynton a bit yesterdays news, he royally fucked up May's campaign and hasn't done much since AFAIK. 

 

12 hours ago, steviewevie said:

😄

Kind of here for the chaos of it all. 

[steviewevie]

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, topmarksbri said:

Lynton a bit yesterdays news, he royally fucked up May's campaign and hasn't done much since AFAIK. 

 

Kind of here for the chaos of it all. 

its al

[steviewevie]

Boris getting away with more dodgy shit