news & politics:discussion

[mcshed]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

It might be a good thing if Starmer’s Labour was significantly more pro-worker than the government but that isn’t the case.

Any attack on inadequate pay and conditions attacks Starmer’s Labour’s policy too (2.1% rise for nurses is not going to cut it). 

Then if there are strikes, he will then face pressure to both condemn from the right, and support from the unions/left. He’ll probably go down the middle with some ’support the message not the economic disruption’ line and end up looking characteristically weak.

As a result I expect Unite will fund the Labour party less and fund other causes more. Or give more direct funding to MPs that champion workers rights.

Graham has even said that unite in Scotland will back independence if their members want it and stop funding Scottish Labour.

Less money for you and more money for your rivals can’t be a good thing surely?

Obviously Starmer would prefer a natural ally in power but the point here is a left wing leader disinterested in the Labour Party is better for him than a continuity Len candidate that wants to control the Labour Party.

I don't know why you think anyone making that point is engaging in some centrist spin that makes Graham out as a moderate.

[mattiloy]

42 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Obviously Starmer would prefer a natural ally in power but the point here is a left wing leader disinterested in the Labour Party is better for him than a continuity Len candidate that wants to control the Labour Party.

I don't know why you think anyone making that point is engaging in some centrist spin that makes Graham out as a moderate.

Turner wasn’t really continuity Len though. There were even rumours at the start of the campaign that people in Starmer’s team were encouraging Coyne to quit the race because they preferred Turner to Beckett.

I say that the centrists have spun it because its true. They’re claiming it as a draw when they’ve lost 5-0.

Britain’s biggest union led by someone who has given up on the Labour party as a vehicle to effect positive change for workers. A near bankrupt party that desperately needs its money. Thats where we’re at.

[fraybentos1]

 

[fraybentos1]

For balance :

 

 

[mcshed]

32 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Turner wasn’t really continuity Len though. There were even rumours at the start of the campaign that people in Starmer’s team were encouraging Coyne to quit the race because they preferred Turner to Beckett.

I say that the centrists have spun it because its true. They’re claiming it as a draw when they’ve lost 5-0.

Britain’s biggest union led by someone who has given up on the Labour party as a vehicle to effect positive change for workers. A near bankrupt party that desperately needs its money. Thats where we’re at.

You claimed that the New Statesman article was spin making Graham out as a moderate, I have repeatedly explained that wasn't what the article was saying. Nobody thinks Graham is a moderate they just think Graham's lack of interest in Labour in-fighting is a positive for moderates.

If Labour look like they are anywhere near power at the time of the next election fundraising won't be a problem, if they're nowhere near then the extra cash won't help.

[mattiloy]

10 minutes ago, mcshed said:

You claimed that the New Statesman article was spin making Graham out as a moderate, I have repeatedly explained that wasn't what the article was saying. Nobody thinks Graham is a moderate they just think Graham's lack of interest in Labour in-fighting is a positive for moderates.

If Labour look like they are anywhere near power at the time of the next election fundraising won't be a problem, if they're nowhere near then the extra cash won't help.

Okay, then allow me to rephrase it very slightly and say that the New Statesman article is spinning the Graham victory as being positive for moderates because Starmer badly needs wins at the moment, when it is in fact not positive and is possibly even worse for them than a Steve Turner victory, and they know it.

[steviewevie]

52 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Okay, then allow me to rephrase it very slightly and say that the New Statesman article is spinning the Graham victory as being positive for moderates because Starmer badly needs wins at the moment, when it is in fact not positive and is possibly even worse for them than a Steve Turner victory, and they know it.

they're spinning it as positive for moderates because it isn't Turner who was seen as McCluskey mk2 and because they see it differently from you...she is left wing but less interested in steering labour party policy or personnel. To me I think it sounds like the best choice, and also good to get another woman as gen sec of a large union.

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

they're spinning it as positive for moderates because it isn't Turner who was seen as McCluskey mk2 and because they see it differently from you...she is left wing but less interested in steering labour party policy or personnel. To me I think it sounds like the best choice, and also good to get another woman as gen sec of a large union.

In any meaningful vote Unite will still back leftwing candidates, Graham won't hesitate to attack the party line if it doesn't meet her expectations as head of Unite. She has said that she plans to withhold funding if these expectations aren't met. She is also probably more likely to take industrial action.

I'm struggling to see a difference between that and what 'meddling' McCluskey has done. The only difference is that rather than continue to fight the Corbyn/anti-Corbyn culture war, she's more likely smack Starmer's bottom on actual policy. Isn't that worse? An independent, socialist, popular, female Union leader on standby to give him shit and withdraw funding whenever he missteps, who cannot be defamed as simply a Corbynista causing trouble?

Anyway, agree that its a positive thing. I think if that kind of appointment could be replicated in the Labour party at some point in the future - basically a Corbynite but without much association with Corbyn, female, good campaigner etc - then it could be a winner. Whether there is a Labour party to lead by then is down to agent Starmer.

[Guest]

Latest monthly poll out by Kantar. It’ll be interesting to see Election Maps UK’s Nowcast at the end of this month that amalgamates the polls for August. 

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Okay, then allow me to rephrase it very slightly and say that the New Statesman article is spinning the Graham victory as being positive for moderates because Starmer badly needs wins at the moment, when it is in fact not positive and is possibly even worse for them than a Steve Turner victory, and they know it.

I really don't think a New Statesman article pointing out that his preferred candidate lost is really spinning a "win" for Starmer. Maybe they are just calling it like they see it, fair enough if you disagree but not everything is a centrist conspiracy.

[mattiloy]

7 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I really don't think a New Statesman article pointing out that his preferred candidate lost is really spinning a "win" for Starmer. Maybe they are just calling it like they see it, fair enough if you disagree but not everything is a centrist conspiracy.

Spin is all about how you report the news though isn’t it. The coverage of this in the liberal media outlets: the new statesman, the guardian and the independent is quite different to its coverage in other media outlets depending on the agenda.

You can’t spin a loss into a win no, so they’ve given the facts, and then decided that it actually might be a good thing after all.

Of course its only my opinion based on my own interpretation of the results and forecasts for the future, but I believe that the truth is closer to that Graham’s appointment makes Starmer’s efforts to shift right more difficult, and could be a serious blow to Labour’s finances in the near future just a month or so after they’ve had to sack 1/3rd of their HQ staff.

[DeanoL]

2 hours ago, mcshed said:

You claimed that the New Statesman article was spin making Graham out as a moderate, I have repeatedly explained that wasn't what the article was saying. Nobody thinks Graham is a moderate they just think Graham's lack of interest in Labour in-fighting is a positive for moderates.

I think the moderates in Labour are genuinely happy because this result gets Unite out of their hair in all the internal squabbles within Labour. It makes getting their way in those internal arguments much easier. And that's what they care about.

They're ignoring the fact that it now positions Unite as potentially opposed to them or at odds with them in an actual election, because they don't care about that bit. At least not at the moment. Which is extremely short-sighted but pretty much indicative of Labour at the moment.

[steviewevie]

Explosion reported outside Kabul airport. Nightmare.

[Guest]

What a shambles. 

[steviewevie]

More liberal media articles about Sharon Graham...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/26/unite-leader-election-unions-labour-party

[guypjfreak]

Bloody nightmare over there.. I feel sorry for the ladies and girls... And once we're out in a few hours the beheadings will start. 

Nutters 

[steviewevie]

 

[Guest]

Boris Johnson really is an asshole. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Boris Johnson really is an asshole. 

Absolute c**ts of the highest order. How are these people in charge of anything? This country is an embarrassment.

[mattiloy]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:57 PM, steviewevie said:

More liberal media articles about Sharon Graham...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/26/unite-leader-election-unions-labour-party

yeah exactly. thats how it should have been reported. unfortunately this is just owen jones' column, one of two regular guardian columnists (the other being monbiot) who are on the left... and thats basically your lot across all the major media outlets.

jones & monbiot are the token left wingers to lend it the veneer of not being the liberal propaganda rag that it is. anybody who thinks that its unbiased living in cloud cuckoo land.

jones had monbiot on his podcast a few weeks ago where they discussed writing in the guardian, that many on the left criticised them for not boycotting it, and they basically said that until there is a proper left media outlet with a similarly large reach, its better than nothing.. hardly a glowing endorsement.

[steviewevie]

57 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

yeah exactly. thats how it should have been reported. unfortunately this is just owen jones' column, one of two regular guardian columnists (the other being monbiot) who are on the left... and thats basically your lot across all the major media outlets.

jones & monbiot are the token left wingers to lend it the veneer of not being the liberal propaganda rag that it is. anybody who thinks that its unbiased living in cloud cuckoo land.

jones had monbiot on his podcast a few weeks ago where they discussed writing in the guardian, that many on the left criticised them for not boycotting it, and they basically said that until there is a proper left media outlet with a similarly large reach, its better than nothing.. hardly a glowing endorsement.

It isn't Owen jones

[steviewevie]

58 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

yeah exactly. thats how it should have been reported. unfortunately this is just owen jones' column, one of two regular guardian columnists (the other being monbiot) who are on the left... and thats basically your lot across all the major media outlets.

jones & monbiot are the token left wingers to lend it the veneer of not being the liberal propaganda rag that it is. anybody who thinks that its unbiased living in cloud cuckoo land.

jones had monbiot on his podcast a few weeks ago where they discussed writing in the guardian, that many on the left criticised them for not boycotting it, and they basically said that until there is a proper left media outlet with a similarly large reach, its better than nothing.. hardly a glowing endorsement.

Guardian leader opinion

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/26/the-guardian-view-on-sharon-graham-a-new-boss-reveals-the-state-of-the-unions

[steviewevie]

59 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

yeah exactly. thats how it should have been reported. unfortunately this is just owen jones' column, one of two regular guardian columnists (the other being monbiot) who are on the left... and thats basically your lot across all the major media outlets.

jones & monbiot are the token left wingers to lend it the veneer of not being the liberal propaganda rag that it is. anybody who thinks that its unbiased living in cloud cuckoo land.

jones had monbiot on his podcast a few weeks ago where they discussed writing in the guardian, that many on the left criticised them for not boycotting it, and they basically said that until there is a proper left media outlet with a similarly large reach, its better than nothing.. hardly a glowing endorsement.

I like Aditya Chakrabortty. Hard name to spell though.

[mattiloy]

17 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

It isn't Owen jones

Ah. Well thats me looking the fool. Owen Jones did write a column on it too. Presumed it was that.

The the point still stands, its a a rare contributor from the left (last had an article in the guardian in 2009) amidst a sea of detractors of left wing politics.

[mcshed]

As I barrel towards 40 I always worry this is what I look like when I go on nights out.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/29/merry-michael-gove-seen-dancing-alone-in-aberdeen-nightclub