news & politics:discussion

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

The sunk cost fallacy. Escalation of commitment. In for a penny, in for a pound. Like a cult.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

Tbf I’d say Corbyn had way more cult like supporters than Starmer. 
 

Give corbyn his dues tho at least everyone was sure what he stood for 
 

 

[mattiloy]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

or he's just trying to make them electable as only time labour have won in last 40 odd years is when they went all new labour.

In my opinion, the only way that strategy succeeds is if he now puts all of the labour party’s efforts into developing a time machine, so he can go back to a time when new labour was electable.

[Crazyfool01]

38 minutes ago, tigger123 said:

Always wanted to see them but never got round to it. What does their live act entail?

A video back drop of a video mixed with a bit of music and a couple of people dressed up dancing about and a bit of interactive booing At times … it’s a fun .. although maybe I’ve not sold it well 😂

[balthazarstarbuck]

42 minutes ago, tigger123 said:

Always wanted to see them but never got round to it. What does their live act entail?

Great fun. A bloke with a cardboard cassette on his head and a lot of references to Alan Sugar. And as @crazyfool1 says, a lot better than that sounds.

If they’re back next year, I’ll be there.

[Gingerfish79]

1 hour ago, fraybentos1 said:

Pretty biased tbf, starmer isn’t that popular but he’s way less unpopular than Corbyn if that makes sense. Corbyn was adored by some but hated by plenty more. That graph doesn’t show the popular/ unpopular split like these things normally do. Coming from the source I’m not shocked tho.

Completely agree, it doesn't give all the information. But its still pretty damning. 

[mcshed]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

People wanted policies, Starmer/Labour outlined policies. Johnson just says vague rhetoric and apparently that’s better now? The goalposts get shifted all the time for Labour.

Johnson offered next to nothing in that speech and deserves to be called out for doing that in the exact same way Starmer would be. 

There is fundamentally a difference between giving a speech as the Prime Minister where everyone knows the detail of your policies as those are the things that are actually happening in government and giving a speech as Leader of the Opposition where you have to convince people you have a realistic and effective alternative plan for the country. 

As I've said before it's hard to be in opposition, remember that the Tories where shit at it too. This country is very conservative (small c) when it comes to government and is suspicious of change, it is very hard for Starmer or any other potential Labour leader but that's the game. There is no use claiming it is unfair you just have to try and work out how to overcome those obstacles.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Zacko said:

I just think the enormity of the challenge requires one of those once in a generation figures charisma wise. An Obama or someone of that ilk. Personally just can't see him exciting or inspiring enough of the country to face the uphill challenge. It's not really anything against him though as he's a good man. The person required for the role probably doesn't even exist in the party tbf.

I'll 100% be voting for him though, don't get me wrong! 

 

The thing is on the other side they have that sort of person for them, I think things would look different if it was any other Tory leader. Although there would still be the same double standards against the 2 parties.

I am passionate about this as I desperately want the Tories out of office, I think it’s the most important thing for the nation. So I am massively invested which is partly why I feel inspired by Labour, but it’s also because I think what they are offering can genuinely help make peoples lives better. I think Starmer can be that person and yes I do feel inspired on some levels when I hear him talk like at Conference last week, not that I should have to explain myself again to some people here but that’s part of my mindset.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, mcshed said:

There is fundamentally a difference between giving a speech as the Prime Minister where everyone knows the detail of your policies as those are the things that are actually happening in government and giving a speech as Leader of the Opposition where you have to convince people you have a realistic and effective alternative plan for the country. 

As I've said before it's hard to be in opposition, remember that the Tories where shit at it too. This country is very conservative (small c) when it comes to government and is suspicious of change, it is very hard for Starmer or any other potential Labour leader but that's the game. There is no use claiming it is unfair you just have to try and work out how to overcome those obstacles.

Do we really know the detail of Johnson's policies? Levelling up, no one knows what that means and it's his whole ethos of government. They announced 2 policies in total though conference, 1 of which is actually something they have announced before but worse.

You are right it is much more difficult for Labour currently so with that in mind they are actually do alright all things being considered. I know there's no point claiming the system is unfair but there are some that say they support Labour yet can't go a comment, tweet, column, interview without criticising Labour even if they start off by criticising the government; it's like they have to get a dig in and then wonder why there's dis-unity within the Party (see Owen Jones).

[steviewevie]

 

[mattiloy]

45 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Do we really know the detail of Johnson's policies? Levelling up, no one knows what that means and it's his whole ethos of government. They announced 2 policies in total though conference, 1 of which is actually something they have announced before but worse.

You are right it is much more difficult for Labour currently so with that in mind they are actually do alright all things being considered. I know there's no point claiming the system is unfair but there are some that say they support Labour yet can't go a comment, tweet, column, interview without criticising Labour even if they start off by criticising the government; it's like they have to get a dig in and then wonder why there's dis-unity within the Party (see Owen Jones and definitely not my BFF Starmer reneging on all of his leadership promises and kicking off a witch hunt of anyone to the left of bald adonis before rigging votes on rule changes to make sure that progressive politics is put on ice for the foreseeable).

More difficult than what? Breathing? It’s been and remains an open goal.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

More difficult than what? Breathing? It’s been and remains an open goal.

 

how, by offering corbyn's manifesto because that is obviously what the country is crying out for?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

More difficult than what? Breathing? It’s been and remains an open goal.

 

McShed said being in Opposition is more difficult than Government, I agreed.

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

McShed said being in Opposition is more difficult than Government, I agreed.

Yeah and surely that’s relative to the government of the day. This one is a famously bad one, yet somehow Starmer is the one that comes across a shambles.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Yeah and surely that’s relative to the government of the day. This one is a famously bad one, yet somehow Starmer is the one that comes across a shambles.

McShed outlines why it's more difficult quite well so with that in mind I think Labour are doing alright. Strong policies announced and a closing of the opinion polls indicating a slashing of the Tory majority would be an indication of that.

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yeah and surely that’s relative to the government of the day. This one is a famously bad one, yet somehow Starmer is the one that comes across a shambles.

This has happened before though,right? 80s mass unemployment and race riots, tories win. Police vs miner striker battles and poll tax riots, tories win. Austerity then Brexit, tories win. And for labour, Iraq war, labour wins. This govt may have fucked up it's pandemic response, but by all accounts they've been forgiven as unprecedented etc and they did spend a lot of money to keep people employed and on medical stuff like vaccines. I think it's what comes next over the next few years that they will be judged, but if labour are going to beat them they have to look like a possible alternative, a govt in waiting, and not sure they do at moment.

Edited October 6, 2021 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

 

[mcshed]

6 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Do we really know the detail of Johnson's policies?

Well yes because his policies are the law of the land. Levelling up is generic waffle but the meat of it is what happens in the country. So if a load of money gets spent on freeports that's the reality of his policies, when there are changes to taxation in the budget, that's the realities of his policies, his speech doesn't need to be specific because the specifics are what actually happens. 

[Guest]

 

[zero000]

13 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

Starmer was pretty  fit back in the day huh? Supporting the rave scene too. What a lad.  

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

podcast about antisemitism on the left.

https://play.acast.com/s/the-bunker/daily-jews-and-the-left-why-antisemitism-isnt-over

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[maelzoid]

12 hours ago, mcshed said:

Well yes because his policies are the law of the land. Levelling up is generic waffle but the meat of it is what happens in the country. So if a load of money gets spent on freeports that's the reality of his policies, when there are changes to taxation in the budget, that's the realities of his policies, his speech doesn't need to be specific because the specifics are what actually happens. 

Yes, of course, but surely he can announce any policy changes ahead of making them law (a process which usually takes a few weeks at least). Isn't that the whole point? He does need to be specific, even if he  plans to make no policy changes, he should say that.

I mean, if he planned to raise VAT, he should announce it, rather than wait for us all to be surprised at the checkout in Sainsbury's.

[efcfanwirral]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

 

(This is at the Tory voter bit, which I assume includes the red wall which is what I'm most interested in) 

Plenty of people heard that they'll get higher wages while getting a good laugh at the woke snowflakes and lefties, so of course they'll be happy. If they applied some critical thinking though they'd realise what they've been promised is near impossible. Its more likely they'll lose their jobs on the way to this supposed promised land. 

And if they do get there, they think those larger digits on their pay packet will have the same spending power they would have now. Way we're going I wouldn't be surprised if it gives them a lot less. 

All just one big con, but they're the government we have and it won't be changing so what can we do? 

Edited October 7, 2021 by efcfanwirral