news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

Johnson thinks he can weasel out on a technicality.

[steviewevie]

[Guest]

 

[mattiloy]

Yo.

Been hanging out in the proper threads nowadays.

But have a question.

In the headliners thread lots of people recall friday 2016, waking up and ’hearing the news’ about Brexit and it putting a shiter on their day..

Tbh I had a blast in 2016 and on the friday. I didnt give a shit about Brexit. I remember waking up and hearing a guy in the next tent on the phone sounding on the verge of tears about it, and was then and remain completely unmoved and utterly puzzled by it.

Specifically, why was a vote on the UK’s membership of a free trade bloc so emotive?

I saw it then as okay, not my choice and this is probably going to reduce yearly gdp by a fraction of a percent yearly, but we don’t know for certain the long run effects.. and then?

It is still perplexing to me that membership of the EU is so emotive.

I know this thread had a lot of EU die hards so I’d love to understand a bit more why the EU meant so much to you?

Is it just that it was setup as a sensibles vs daftie, good vs evil battle and the evil dafties won?

Edited February 16, 2022 by mattiloy

[Ryan1984]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Yo.

Been hanging out in the proper threads nowadays.

But have a question.

In the headliners thread lots of people recall friday 2016, waking up and ’hearing the news’ about Brexit and it putting a shiter on their day..

Tbh I had a blast in 2016 and on the friday. I didnt give a shit about Brexit. I remember waking up and hearing a guy in the next tent on the phone sounding on the verge of tears about it, and was then and remain completely unmoved and utterly puzzled by it.

Specifically, why was a vote on the UK’s membership of a free trade bloc so emotive?

I saw it then as okay, not my choice and this is probably going to reduce yearly gdp by a fraction of a percent yearly, but we don’t know for certain the long run effects.. and then?

It is still perplexing to me that membership of the EU is so emotive.

I know this thread had a lot of EU die hards so I’d love to understand a bit more why the EU meant so much to you?

Is it just that it was setup as a sensibles vs daftie, good vs evil battle and the evil dafties won?

For me, it was the lies and dangerous rhetoric whipped up by the likes of Johnson and Farage and how they made it a nationalist/xenophobic subject rather than about trading agreements.
Also the leaving without any plan that put so many businesses in difficult situations and made it hard for young people to travel. Also aware how hard it has made touring the EU for smaller bands and creatives. Essentially, leaving might have been the right thing but there needed to be a solid plan in place that wouldn’t disrupt livelihoods.
The sense of British exceptionalism since - we signed a deal but don’t want to abide by it, everything is still the EU’s fault, NI and the prime minister now using ‘remained’ as a slur both in the Commons and through his official channels - also leaves a bitter taste. 

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Yo.

Been hanging out in the proper threads nowadays.

But have a question.

In the headliners thread lots of people recall friday 2016, waking up and ’hearing the news’ about Brexit and it putting a shiter on their day..

Tbh I had a blast in 2016 and on the friday. I didnt give a shit about Brexit. I remember waking up and hearing a guy in the next tent on the phone sounding on the verge of tears about it, and was then and remain completely unmoved and utterly puzzled by it.

Specifically, why was a vote on the UK’s membership of a free trade bloc so emotive?

I saw it then as okay, not my choice and this is probably going to reduce yearly gdp by a fraction of a percent yearly, but we don’t know for certain the long run effects.. and then?

It is still perplexing to me that membership of the EU is so emotive.

I know this thread had a lot of EU die hards so I’d love to understand a bit more why the EU meant so much to you?

Is it just that it was setup as a sensibles vs daftie, good vs evil battle and the evil dafties won?

I didn't really care about the economic arguments too much...I just looked at who was campaigning for brexit and it looked like a bad idea to me...plus on an existential level I like being part of europe, I like that my kid could easily go live/work elsewhere in the EU, I actually like europeans coming to live here, and on a simple level we are only 20 miles away so kind of makes sense. I wasn't at the festival in 2016, but I remember being gutted at the result, and was pretty down about it all day, and the following days/weeks/months. Felt regressive to me, something I'm guessing you will disagree with. In hindsight maybe I was being over dramatic about it, I don't know. I understand the arguments for and against, and thought the whole campaign leading up to the referendum depressing complete with Farage's breaking point poster and the murder of Jo Cox. After the vote I kind of thought soft brexit was the best bet, I liked labour's brexit policy, but after 2017 election it seemed any room for compromise was gone as both sides dug in and it was all or nothing, and ended up being all and we now have a different type of tory party with a different coalition.

[steviewevie]

...I also thought the idea of european countries in one co-operative organisation after centuries of war not a bad idea. You could argue about how this organisation is organised and how democratic or not it is, but on a basic level a single trading block replaces the need for invading each other all the time.

[steviewevie]

REJOIN!

[steviewevie]

...and then there's the issue of N Ireland. But I don't think most English people give a shit about that.

[steviewevie]

Labour and Lib Dems in informal ‘non-aggression’ pact ahead of next UK election

https://www.ft.com/content/7d10aef7-1ed5-4e0d-a128-858cd0b2e2f0?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

[steviewevie]

Misery index up....but could be on way down by next election...

 

[lost]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I just looked at who was campaigning for brexit and it looked like a bad idea to me...

It seems to have been wiped from history but the same momentum peeps who supported Corbyn were campaigning for leave near me and telling people the minute TTIP was signed between the EU and U.S it meant the NHS had to be privatised and the only way to stop it was to vote leave. I know there are also suggestions from Alan Johnson that Corbyn's office sabotaged labour remain and stories of John Mcdonnell and Seamus Milne having a celebratory breakfast the day after the vote.

Thing is they are kind of right, the EU fiscal stability pact was designed by a bloke who thought in democracies people can't be trusted not to keep voting themselves freebies and so both Rees Mogg's Singapore on Thames and Corbyn's erm Caracas on Thames visions are both unattainable whilst being a member. The EU is really a centrist vision and the vote came at a time people wanted to give the economic and political consensus a bloody nose.

[squirrelarmy]

25 minutes ago, lost said:

The EU is really a centrist vision

You mean a nice happy place where everyone can get along with easy travel and free trade agreements. 

[steviewevie]

26 minutes ago, lost said:

It seems to have been wiped from history but the same momentum peeps who supported Corbyn were campaigning for leave near me and telling people the minute TTIP was signed between the EU and U.S it meant the NHS had to be privatised and the only way to stop it was to vote leave. I know there are also suggestions from Alan Johnson that Corbyn's office sabotaged labour remain and stories of John Mcdonnell and Seamus Milne having a celebratory breakfast the day after the vote.

Thing is they are kind of right, the EU fiscal stability pact was designed by a bloke who thought in democracies people can't be trusted not to keep voting themselves freebies and so both Rees Mogg's Singapore on Thames and Corbyn's erm Caracas on Thames visions are both unattainable whilst being a member. The EU is really a centrist vision and the vote came at a time people wanted to give the economic and political consensus a bloody nose.

Yeah, but lexit always seemed fringe to me seeing that the left are never in power.

[fraybentos1]

9 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Yo.

Been hanging out in the proper threads nowadays.

But have a question.

In the headliners thread lots of people recall friday 2016, waking up and ’hearing the news’ about Brexit and it putting a shiter on their day..

Tbh I had a blast in 2016 and on the friday. I didnt give a shit about Brexit. I remember waking up and hearing a guy in the next tent on the phone sounding on the verge of tears about it, and was then and remain completely unmoved and utterly puzzled by it.

Specifically, why was a vote on the UK’s membership of a free trade bloc so emotive?

I saw it then as okay, not my choice and this is probably going to reduce yearly gdp by a fraction of a percent yearly, but we don’t know for certain the long run effects.. and then?

It is still perplexing to me that membership of the EU is so emotive.

I know this thread had a lot of EU die hards so I’d love to understand a bit more why the EU meant so much to you?

Is it just that it was setup as a sensibles vs daftie, good vs evil battle and the evil dafties won?

Glastonbury attenders obv wouldn’t be an accurate snapshot of the entire population (even remainers). On another note this is obv impossible to know but I’m curious what the remain/leave split of glasto go-ers that year was - 80/20? Is that a fair guess. Or is it more like 99/1?

I think the only reason I would have found it emotive to the point of tears is if people close to me were European and I was worried about visa issues or whatever. 
 

I wasn’t upset as such just really annoyed and saw and still see basically 0 upsides to brexit and so many down sides. 
 

I do wonder tho if glasto attendees are quite as pro remain as seems assumed. I mean the majority voted leave so there must have been a few leavers cutting about the festival that weekend?

[lost]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, but lexit always seemed fringe to me seeing that the left are never in power.

True but in 2016 there seemed to be this idea that a youth quake was going to drive Corbyn to power. Even as recently as the 2019 election you'd look at what was trending on twitter on the day and you'd of  thought Corbyn was going to win rather than suffer the worst labour defeat since 1935. 

[Neil]

16 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

yiu can see where the leavers cast their votes, its all remain's fault.

[steviewevie]

20 minutes ago, lost said:

True but in 2016 there seemed to be this idea that a youth quake was going to drive Corbyn to power. Even as recently as the 2019 election you'd look at what was trending on twitter on the day and you'd of  thought Corbyn was going to win rather than suffer the worst labour defeat since 1935. 

Ha..yes remember it well. People posting pics of long queues of young people at polling stations in London meaning labour were going to pull off a surprise victory, forgetting that not everywhere is London.

Edited February 17, 2022 by steviewevie

[Neil]

50 minutes ago, lost said:

True but in 2016 there seemed to be this idea that a youth quake was going to drive Corbyn to power. Even as recently as the 2019 election you'd look at what was trending on twitter on the day and you'd of  thought Corbyn was going to win rather than suffer the worst labour defeat since 1935. 

you'd have o nly thought corbyn was going to win if you were completely detached from normal people.

[lost]

44 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Ha..yes remember it well. People posting pics of long queues of young people at polling stations in London meaning labour were going to pull off a surprise victory, forgetting that not everywhere is London.

Indeed so history shouldn't really be written as its all Boris/Nigel's fault.

Infact I'd go as far to say that if Ed Miliband hadn't stabbed his brother in the back we'd of probably had either a labour/lib dem or tory/lib dem coalition in 2015 with the liberals blocking the referendum ( the later being Camerons plan)

Then if he hadn't changed the party membership rules after losing, allowing a bunch of entryists to sign up without any vetting, the lexit crowd wouldn't have had control of labours party machinery.

He's potentially the most at fault indirectly.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by lost

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, lost said:

He's potentially the most at fault indirectly.

no, none of it happens if corbyn isn't elected leader always a bad choice , so those who voted for him are the most at fault indirectly.

[lost]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

no, none of it happens if corbyn isn't elected leader always a bad choice , so those who voted for him are the most at fault indirectly.

Toby Young singed up and voted for him. Hence the point on the new labour members. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by lost

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, lost said:

Indeed so history shouldn't really be written as its all Boris/Nigel's fault.

Infact I'd go as far to say that if Ed Miliband hadn't stabbed his brother in the back we'd of probably had either a labour/lib dem or tory/lib dem coalition in 2015 with the liberals blocking the referendum ( the later being Camerons plan)

Then if he hadn't changed the party membership rules after losing, allowing a bunch of entryists to sign up without any vetting, the lexit crowd wouldn't have had control of labours party machinery.

He's potentially the most at fault indirectly.

 

well, what and who is to blame for brexit is complicated and we can keep going back in time and there's all sorts of reasons.

But, really...we can't start blaming Corbyn for brexit. You could argue his heart wasn't in it but he did campaign for remain, and I'm not sure if mattered who was in charge of labour as it's electorate was split down the middle on the issue and I'm not sure how many minds would have been changed. And this all forgets that labour under Corbyn did a lot better than expected in 2017, and the tories lost their majority when the whole point of that election for May was to actually increase their majority to get whatever brexit deal she negotiated through parliament. In the end that 2017 election was a bit of a disaster all round...just led to labour going round in circles with it's own brexit policies, and parliament stuck which led to Johnson/Cummings and the whole proroguing thing and then all the bollocks that came after.

I think one big mistake the remain campaign made was getting Cameron and Osborne to lead it.

 

[lost]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

You could argue his heart wasn't in it

Understatement of the year. He's been campaigning against the EU longer than Farage has been in politics. It was the parties position to be pro-EU but as I said Alan Johnson has suggested underhand methods were used by Milne Corbyns office. I really can't understand why pro-EU people on the left keep defending him?

Edited February 17, 2022 by lost

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

But, really...we can't start blaming Corbyn for brexit

a better politician than him could have played it for a better outcome, such as May's deal, easily available to him, he never thought it thru, "what happens next?".

Edited February 17, 2022 by Neil