news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

[Wave's hand for paying more tax for properly resourced pubic services...why is that considered so abnormal?]

Yeah, I know, blah blah blah I blame Thatcher blah blah blah 'no such thing as society' blah blah blah. Amazing how quickly the 80s/90s normalised attitudes that paying ANY tax is bad, that ALL public service workers are shirkers, that only PRIVATE companies can provide value for money, that nothing should get in the way of BUSINESS wanting to make profit, that giving to the RICH will trickle down to the poor blah blah blah.

It's idealistic I know, but I like to think it is a politician's ACTUAL job to put forward the arguments for a properly funded society full of quality public services people need so that we don't end up in a race to the bottom where we all end up in victorian workshouses. You know, inspire...people...that...it...doesn't...have...to...be...like...this...and...another...world...is...possible...

I clearly need a leftfield recharge...better get a bloody ticket this weekend...

I don't think people have liked paying tax since the beginning of time....but maybe there is more a selfish attitude since Thatcher. This country mostly needs a proper redistrubtion of wealth, being so unequal is fucking us up.

Oh, and good luck with the Glastonbury ticket. Don't think I'm bothering.

[hodgey123]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I don't think people have liked paying tax since the beginning of time....but maybe there is more a selfish attitude since Thatcher. This country mostly needs a proper redistrubtion of wealth, being so unequal is fucking us up.

Oh, and good luck with the Glastonbury ticket. Don't think I'm bothering.

People don't like paying tax because they have the feeling that their money is being wasted. With the current government, that feeling is absolutely valid. What needs to happen, and what Kurosagi said better than I could, is a political party needs to be bullish in saying that tax rises are needed (maybe not across the board but that is another discussion) and that they are going to pay for x, y and z, and if the tax rises don't come, then x, y and z are going to continue failing. 

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

People don't like paying tax because they have the feeling that their money is being wasted. With the current government, that feeling is absolutely valid. What needs to happen, and what Kurosagi said better than I could, is a political party needs to be bullish in saying that tax rises are needed (maybe not across the board but that is another discussion) and that they are going to pay for x, y and z, and if the tax rises don't come, then x, y and z are going to continue failing. 

You can't afford to pay for a decent social care and health care system without tax rises in my view. The trouble is who will vote for the rises.

[steviewevie]

25 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

People don't like paying tax because they have the feeling that their money is being wasted. With the current government, that feeling is absolutely valid. What needs to happen, and what Kurosagi said better than I could, is a political party needs to be bullish in saying that tax rises are needed (maybe not across the board but that is another discussion) and that they are going to pay for x, y and z, and if the tax rises don't come, then x, y and z are going to continue failing. 

Ok, well Sunak/Johnson raised NI to pay for health and social care...mainly concentrating on health care first of all to deal with backlogs after the pandemic. Labour was against this tax rise, and now looks like it won't happen. And even then a lot of people were saying that none of this money would end up being spent on social care, we  wouldneed more funds. 

And Streeting has maybe started that conversation. e.g. they can say they will raise income tax by a penny or 2 and/or move some thresholds or whatever, and that would all go on NHS. Then there will need to be a tax for social care, maybe something like May stupidly suggested during an election campaign, which Corbyn's Labour called a dementia tax and the public hated it so in the bin it went...And maybe the public will be on board, they love the NHS after all, they clapped and everything...or maybe the Tories and newspapers will say look, same old Labour raising taxes. So, maybe in the end there has to be a mix. Higher taxes, and some reform, because the NHS is massive, expensive, and we have an aging population so it's going to need to be bigger and will need ever more money.

Basically, I don't think there are any easy answers, but I do think possible solutions need to be debated, and hopefully they will in the lead up to next election.

 

[Kurosagi]

39 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Oh, and good luck with the Glastonbury ticket. Don't think I'm bothering.

Well if you're at a loose end Sunday morning you can help me get mine then 👍

But more seriously, why are you not bothering is it the price rise or still recovering from family grief at the last one?

[Kurosagi]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Basically, I don't think there are any easy answers, but I do think possible solutions need to be debated, and hopefully they will in the lead up to next election.

Put up tax by 1p and then invest the money in buying lottery tickets for those ridiculous US billionaire ones. Sure fire winner.

[hodgey123]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Ok, well Sunak/Johnson raised NI to pay for health and social care...mainly concentrating on health care first of all to deal with backlogs after the pandemic. Labour was against this tax rise, and now looks like it won't happen. And even then a lot of people were saying that none of this money would end up being spent on social care, we  wouldneed more funds. 

And Streeting has maybe started that conversation. e.g. they can say they will raise income tax by a penny or 2 and/or move some thresholds or whatever, and that would all go on NHS. Then there will need to be a tax for social care, maybe something like May stupidly suggested during an election campaign, which Corbyn's Labour called a dementia tax and the public hated it so in the bin it went...And maybe the public will be on board, they love the NHS after all, they clapped and everything...or maybe the Tories and newspapers will say look, same old Labour raising taxes. So, maybe in the end there has to be a mix. Higher taxes, and some reform, because the NHS is massive, expensive, and we have an aging population so it's going to need to be bigger and will need ever more money.

Basically, I don't think there are any easy answers, but I do think possible solutions need to be debated, and hopefully they will in the lead up to next election.

 

On the first point, the reason why many were/are against this is because it is incredibly poorly-targeted. Of all the taxes to raise, why would you raise NICs which are exclusively paid by working people who are often the worst off? Why not go after other passive taxes, e.g. aligning dividend/gains rates with income taxes, windfall taxes etc. to get this extra (needed) money? Or ending non-dom status? The reason why is because of their ideology/wealth as Tory voters are more likely to have passive income, or be involved in oil and gas companies and be hit with rises.

I agree with your broader point about this country generally hating taxes and that is what I was referring to in the original message. But I think part of that resentment comes from the fact that ordinary people see these wealthy individuals/corporates legally avoiding tax and think - correctly - why should I pay more?

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Well if you're at a loose end Sunday morning you can help me get mine then 👍

But more seriously, why are you not bothering is it the price rise or still recovering from family grief at the last one?

bit of both. Can't take my kid again, she has recently been diagnosed with autism so she really shouldn't have gone, way too much. And none of my mates are interested.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, hodgey123 said:

On the first point, the reason why many were/are against this is because it is incredibly poorly-targeted. Of all the taxes to raise, why would you raise NICs which are exclusively paid by working people who are often the worst off? Why not go after other passive taxes, e.g. aligning dividend/gains rates with income taxes, windfall taxes etc. to get this extra (needed) money? Or ending non-dom status? The reason why is because of their ideology/wealth as Tory voters are more likely to have passive income, or be involved in oil and gas companies and be hit with rises.

 

yes, agree with it being poorly targetted, but tories are never going to raise income tax, and I expect labour wouldn't dare either.  I don't understand all those other tax thingies, but you need a constant supply of funding, and a lot of it. 

[Kurosagi]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

or maybe the Tories and newspapers will say look, same old Labour raising taxes

This is the nub of it though isn't it. Until we break the reactionary pile on cycle of political reporting it's difficult for any well meaning politician to do anything half reasonable.

I've been reflecting on this during the last few days or so in light of the current Braverman pile on. We've had so many years of ever hysterical political drama that I was actually a bit miffed that post Sunak's coronation we've immediately turned all guns onto Braverman (she's shit don't get me wrong, but that's not the point I'm making). I was looking forward to a few weeks of grown up reporting and analysis about sorting the post Truss black hole.

Anyway, made me worried whether the love triangle between politicians-media-electorate is truly broken and it's all just endless drama from now on no matter which govt is in power. Politics as circus sideshow entertainment.

[hodgey123]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

yes, agree with it being poorly targetted, but tories are never going to raise income tax, and I expect labour wouldn't dare either.  I don't understand all those other tax thingies, but you need a constant supply of funding, and a lot of it. 

Sorry, may have got carried away as I am a tax advisor for high net worth individuals so have first-hand experience/knowledge of the various different rates available for the more wealthy!

[Kurosagi]

9 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

But I think part of that resentment comes from the fact that ordinary people see these wealthy individuals/corporates legally avoiding tax and think - correctly - why should I pay more?

Yep, well put, you're right and it's easy to forget how simple it can be...when you've had years and years of the tories/rich/corporations/royals taking the piss it's seductive to think fuck it everybody's pulling a fast one I will too.

Depressing though, once we start fighting amongst ourselves the status quo wins.

[Neil]

2 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

You are an imbecile. The Fed in the USA and ECB both also raised by 0.75 is that the Tories fault? They had to do it.

the boe had to raise rates months ago, to fulfil their 3% inflation remit. everything is fucked cos they held back.

[Kurosagi]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Can't take my kid again, she has recently been diagnosed with autism so she really shouldn't have gone, way too much.

It can be done...but yeah it's a lot of extra work and anxiety. Did you take her to see Packham talk about it at leftfield?

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

And none of my mates are interested.

Can be easy to do it on your own. I take no prisoners when I go and can spend the entire day alone sprinting from one end of the site to the next catching as many bands/acts/speakers as I can. I've found it more rewarding chatting to strangers in the crowd waiting for the next thing to come on rather than being with a mate who's tagged along because they can't be arsed to have an opinion. But yeah, festival by spreadsheet isn't everyone's cup of tea!

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Neil said:

the boe had to raise rates months ago, to fulfil their 3% inflation remit. everything is fucked cos they held back.

Sadly with 12 years of Tory rules it’s going to be hard on the country and their policies have played a part in all this. The BOE said today that the mini-budget will be felt for some time.

We’ve had years of austerity already, stagnant wages and separating ourselves from our largest trading partner have meant we are in an awful position to combat this recession. They can’t do anymore of these usual tricks because they’ve done it already but they’ll damn well try and gut our public services some more. They’ll end up stealing other peoples ideas and hope that they work.

[fraybentos1]

15 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Sadly with 12 years of Tory rules it’s going to be hard on the country and their policies have played a part in all this. The BOE said today that the mini-budget will be felt for some time.

We’ve had years of austerity already, stagnant wages and separating ourselves from our largest trading partner have meant we are in an awful position to combat this recession. They can’t do anymore of these usual tricks because they’ve done it already but they’ll damn well try and gut our public services some more. They’ll end up stealing other peoples ideas and hope that they work.

It's crazy that the mini budget also made America and the EU raise rates by 0.75%...

[steviewevie]

59 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

It can be done...but yeah it's a lot of extra work and anxiety. Did you take her to see Packham talk about it at leftfield?

yes actually because she really wanted to see him, but she thought it was going to be about his conservation/wildlife stuff and it was before her diagnosis but after she had been put on autism assessment waiting list, so it was all a bit awkward. She was ok, but just got overwhelmed a few times, crowds, noise, drunk dad etc.

I would quite like to go on my own, and would see a lot more stuff and would probably have a pretty good time...but might be tricky to get a pass (and a ticket).

[steviewevie]

23 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Sadly with 12 years of Tory rules it’s going to be hard on the country and their policies have played a part in all this. The BOE said today that the mini-budget will be felt for some time.

We’ve had years of austerity already, stagnant wages and separating ourselves from our largest trading partner have meant we are in an awful position to combat this recession. They can’t do anymore of these usual tricks because they’ve done it already but they’ll damn well try and gut our public services some more. They’ll end up stealing other peoples ideas and hope that they work.

yeah that mini budget managed fucked whatever confidence the markets had in GB plc, and now we're stuck with tax rises and spending cuts otherwise we'll get even more fucked. What a fuckup.

Edited November 3, 2022 by steviewevie

[Guest]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

yeah that mini budget managed fucked whatever confidence the markets had in GB plc, and now we're stuck with tax rises and spending cuts otherwise we'll get even more fucked. What a fuckup.

The Tory Premium. 

[Guest]

 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

I mean...it's a bit of a nightmare right? If recession then need to cut rates, but at same time they want to do what they can to help bring down inflation...and they can't cut taxes and raise spending otherwise markets get spooked and all the stuff that comes with that...falling pound and raised gilt yields. It is a bit of a shit situation, and maybe labour need the govt to make all the hard decisions now and not postpone otherwise they'll be stuck with it (if they win).

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean...it's a bit of a nightmare right? If recession then need to cut rates, but at same time they want to do what they can to help bring down inflation...and they can't cut taxes and raise spending otherwise markets get spooked and all the stuff that comes with that...falling pound and raised gilt yields. It is a bit of a shit situation, and maybe labour need the govt to make all the hard decisions now and not postpone otherwise they'll be stuck with it (if they win).

Well you raise interest rates when inflation is caused by high consumer spending/confidence. Interest rates are high now because of supply issues so in theory you should do the opposite and cut interest rates. 

[Ryan1984]

Brutella’s latest (expensive) publicity stunt will whip up a certain section of the Tory fan base: 

 

[lost]

50 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Interest rates are high now because of supply issues so in theory you should do the opposite and cut interest rates. 

What your suggesting is what the Tories tried to do but via tax cuts to increase demand rather than lower interest rates. The problem is the supply of goods doesn't change hence increased demand chasing the same number of goods is just going to feed into even higher inflation.

[fraybentos1]

56 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Well you raise interest rates when inflation is caused by high consumer spending/confidence. Interest rates are high now because of supply issues so in theory you should do the opposite and cut interest rates. 

Ozaane here saying he knows better than the Fed, Bank of England, ECB, Australian and NZ central banks