news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

ok...here...backs tory sentences for protesters..but also a pledge to impose a moratorium on new oil and gas projects

Keir Starmer backs stiff sentences for climate protesters who block roads | Labour | The Guardian

[steviewevie]

there's protests...and then there's blocking people being able to go about their day. Blocking roads is illegal isn't it?

[kaosmark2]

18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

what has he said apart from get up and go home?

I'll try and dig out and article next time I'm on a laptop, but he said that he endorses stricter punishments for protestors, in a post-Patel world with the nasty powers added during lockdown not repealed.

[kaosmark2]

A note on protest:

Virtually all protests are on issues that have had petitions, contacting MPs and counselors, and other "democratic" methods of resolution. Environmental issues are obviously part of this, but another recent example would be the Colston statue.

Protest is the follow up to democracy failing on that issue. The first protests are always marches, and are almost always ignored.

At that point, protest has to become disruptive, for it to even have a chance of being effective, it has to be disruptive. If it doesn't get noticed, or challenge people's thinking and behaviour, it's pointless.

Now... That isn't too say there aren't shit protest methods/times. I was particularly dismayed when XR blockaded the London underground, as public transport is key to reducing emissions, and it most impacted low-paid gig economy workers, but "they got in my way" is a shit complaint or reason to oppose it. It's exactly the same as Tory NIMBY behaviour.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

ok...here...backs tory sentences for protesters..but also a pledge to impose a moratorium on new oil and gas projects

Keir Starmer backs stiff sentences for climate protesters who block roads | Labour | The Guardian

He’s trying to appeal to both sides of the argument and make Labour more electable to key swing voters. It’s sensible and one of the main things Labour need to do to be seen as ready for government. 

[steviewevie]

51 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

A note on protest:

Virtually all protests are on issues that have had petitions, contacting MPs and counselors, and other "democratic" methods of resolution. Environmental issues are obviously part of this, but another recent example would be the Colston statue.

Protest is the follow up to democracy failing on that issue. The first protests are always marches, and are almost always ignored.

At that point, protest has to become disruptive, for it to even have a chance of being effective, it has to be disruptive. If it doesn't get noticed, or challenge people's thinking and behaviour, it's pointless.

Now... That isn't too say there aren't shit protest methods/times. I was particularly dismayed when XR blockaded the London underground, as public transport is key to reducing emissions, and it most impacted low-paid gig economy workers, but "they got in my way" is a shit complaint or reason to oppose it. It's exactly the same as Tory NIMBY behaviour.

yeah...ok. I mean it definitely is getting attention, just not sure targetting general public best method.

[cellar]

In fairness, it will appeal to a particular demographic of people, so might win some votes there. I wonder how many votes are being lost from other demographic areas though - I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable voting Labour now (not that it will matter much, as my area is pretty Labour-heavy).

The whole thing is a scary prospect as still allows room for Tories - which I think is probably where a lot of the frustration towards Starmer comes from, it shouldn't feel so desperate when the Tories have been self-imploding for a while.

[Guest]

They won’t get the results they want if they keep on pissing off the public, you need to get the people on side to then pressure government or vote accordingly. Starmer seems to understand this which is encouraging. 

[kaosmark2]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah...ok. I mean it definitely is getting attention, just not sure targetting general public best method.

How disruptive do you think these protests are in comparison to how disruptive you think climate change will be?

Being low key disruptive to the general public is part of the point.

[kaosmark2]

Btw, "stiffer sentences" is just a pandering dog whistle unless the government sorts out the court backlog (that was exacerbated through lockdown), as there aren't the legal mechanisms to process the cases right now. And prisons are full.

A practical solution that is actually "tough on crime" is opening more courts, hiring more admin staff, and restructuring the scheduling of criminal barristers.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

How disruptive do you think these protests are in comparison to how disruptive you think climate change will be?

Being low key disruptive to the general public is part of the point.

yes yes, I get that argument, I know it's the existential crisis of our times and all that...and this definitely gets attention...but at same time it's targetting the public who probably feel it isn't their fault and many will just get fucked off with it. I would if I was trying to get to a job, or trying to see an elderly parent, or trying to get my kid to school, or A&E. How about target oil companies and the like, do stuff like greenpeace used to do. 

[kaosmark2]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yes yes, I get that argument, I know it's the existential crisis of our times and all that...and this definitely gets attention...but at same time it's targetting the public who probably feel it isn't their fault and many will just get fucked off with it. I would if I was trying to get to a job, or trying to see an elderly parent, or trying to get my kid to school, or A&E. How about target oil companies and the like, do stuff like greenpeace used to do. 

You mean like how they targeted SUV dealerships in the centre of London?

I don't think the motorway blocking protests are the most effective they do, but I do understand them. There's some that stand out as better, others as worse (blocking the BRI hospital was shit).

As a comparison though, I was 30 minutes late to a medical appointment I'd waited 18 months for yesterday... Because the first 3 buses up there just didn't turn up. Disruption to both every day life and important things happens, and I'd rather blame Brexit for driving bus drivers out of the country than just stop oil. I'm pretty sure the former has done much more disruption to every day important travel.

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

there's protests...and then there's blocking people being able to go about their day. Blocking roads is illegal isn't it?

Even if it is illegal it hardly merits jail time. This isn't China 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

You mean like how they targeted SUV dealerships in the centre of London?

I don't think the motorway blocking protests are the most effective they do, but I do understand them. There's some that stand out as better, others as worse (blocking the BRI hospital was shit).

As a comparison though, I was 30 minutes late to a medical appointment I'd waited 18 months for yesterday... Because the first 3 buses up there just didn't turn up. Disruption to both every day life and important things happens, and I'd rather blame Brexit for driving bus drivers out of the country than just stop oil. I'm pretty sure the former has done much more disruption to every day important travel.

Yeah, I like to blame brexit for everything too.

[Guest]

It feels like every section and infrastructure in the country is just crap at the moment ie NHS on its knees, court backlogs. This is the Tories legacy and they are gaslighting people into thinking it’s other peoples fault hoping that we’ll just crab bucket each other. We shouldn’t let them. 

[kaosmark2]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It feels like every section and infrastructure in the country is just crap at the moment ie NHS on its knees, court backlogs. This is the Tories legacy and they are gaslighting people into thinking it’s other peoples fault hoping that we’ll just crab bucket each other. We shouldn’t let them. 

Exactly, these things are on the Tories, and I'm not happy about Starmer following them on who to blame. 

[steviewevie]

Starmer has pledged to impose a moratorium on new oil and gas projects which meets the demands of Just Stop Oil.

[kaosmark2]

49 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer has pledged to impose a moratorium on new oil and gas projects which meets the demands of Just Stop Oil.

And if he follows up on those demands, those protestors won't be disrupting motorways, and there'll be no need for legislation for harsher punishment.

Meanwhile, we currently have a PM who is banning onshore wind, who voted to remove the tax breaks on installing solar panels, and only went to the international climate summit after criticism from his colleagues and the press. So until that changes, I'm quite happy for them to continue protesting.

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

And if he follows up on those demands, those protestors won't be disrupting motorways

they'll all be in prison.

[kaosmark2]

9 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

they'll all be in prison.

In 6 years given what the court backlog will be by then.

[squirrelarmy]

What better choice of PM to sort out the justice system than someone with vast experience when it comes to prosecution of criminality. 

[kaosmark2]

13 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

What better choice of PM to sort out the justice system than someone with vast experience when it comes to prosecution of criminality. 

I'm losing faith in the prospect of whether he will, but yes.

[mattiloy]

8 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

What better choice of PM to sort out the justice system than someone with vast experience when it comes to prosecution of criminality. 

As DPP he had form on making it easier to prosecute protesters and protecting coppers, including not prosecuting those who killed Ian Tomlinson.

This combined with the way he has ridden roughshod over internal party democracy and processes and his latest blither on the climate protesters and ID cards all point to a decidedly authoritarian persuasion.

Plus he’s short AF. UK Macron.

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

As DPP he had form on making it easier to prosecute protesters and protecting coppers, including not prosecuting those who killed Ian Tomlinson.

This combined with the way he has ridden roughshod over internal party democracy and processes and his latest blither on the climate protesters and ID cards all point to a decidedly authoritarian persuasion.

Plus he’s short AF. UK Macron.

The first point is fair. He's not quite Kamala the cop bad, but he's got history 

“run roughshod over internal party democracy" , can you actually back that up with anything others didn't do? Every previous time I've seen this brought up it's just been with whining that he's not Corbyn and isn't protecting anti-Semitic shitbags.

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

As DPP he had form on making it easier to prosecute protesters and protecting coppers, including not prosecuting those who killed Ian Tomlinson.

This combined with the way he has ridden roughshod over internal party democracy and processes and his latest blither on the climate protesters and ID cards all point to a decidedly authoritarian persuasion.

Plus he’s short AF. UK Macron.