news & politics:discussion

[pink_triangle]

8 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

How disruptive do you think these protests are in comparison to how disruptive you think climate change will be?

Being low key disruptive to the general public is part of the point.

Its interesting how different protests are treated differently. In terms of strikes the public seem relatively wiling to accept disruption. 

I remember fairly recently seeing a protest where middle class kids were pouring milk on the floor of posh shop and probably only disrupting the (relatively,) poorly paid cleaners. It's easy to see how that type of protest will never win public support.

I actually don't know what the answer is. Unless protest movements can find charismatic leaders, they will probably struggle to gain public support.

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I really didn't think a majority was possible until started getting the recent poll leads, now I believe...but 2 years is a long time, other stuff will happen, so who knows. I think Labour can make gains in Scotland, but only small gains from tories, not so much SNP.

If do end up with a labour minority govt then that probably means a higher chance of PR as part of a deal with lib dems...although might end up as some confusing fudge like AV and another referendum and then who knows. If do get PR then could well be RIP Labour and Conservative parties as we know it, which maybe isn't a bad thing, but at same time would be a huge change for this country. They might need to redesign parliament to one of those groovy semi circles things they have in more advanced democracies.

I suspect it will be the SNP they will need to find an agreement with and not the lib Dems. I think labour could play fairly hardball with the SNP if the alternative is a Tory government and find areas of shared interest to legislate.

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

I don’t even know where to begin. But since its happening right now, the restricting of long lists for parliamentary candidate selection to right wingers only for one.

And its not just left wingers. They’ve even blocked a Labour/Coop soft left candidate for liking fairly mundane tweets by Nicola sturgeon several years ago. The guy who is the candidate liked posts by tories as recently as months ago.

Just today they have overriden the selection process completely to reselect former Tory MP ’Labour = c**ts’ whatsapp message guy, also recently made a Labour whip. This is of course contrary to party rules, but they don’t care.

I have no doubt that the labour leadership is rigging the system to promote their candidates of choice, it would be naive to think the Corbyn leadership didn't do the same.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I suspect it will be the SNP they will need to find an agreement with and not the lib Dems. I think labour could play fairly hardball with the SNP if the alternative is a Tory government and find areas of shared interest to legislate.

I’ve said this for a while, Labour won’t go into any coalition if it’s a hung parliament. They’ll form a minority government and essentially dare the opposition parties to vote down a Kings Speech. 

[pink_triangle]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I’ve said this for a while, Labour won’t go into any coalition if it’s a hung parliament. They’ll form a minority government and essentially dare the opposition parties to vote down a Kings Speech. 

I agree. The lib Dems leverage in 2010 was in theory they could get into bed with either side. I don't see either lib Dems or SNP in that position this time which weakens their hand.

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

So the same bullshit everyone else has spouted, right.

Corbyn parachuted irrelevant candidates in during his reign. It happens during every leader. He parachuted in anti-semitic c**ts.  This isn't "running roughshod over internal party democracy", it's giving preference to candidates with the same ideals.

There's times it happens and I disagree with it, there's times it happens and I like the candidate. Every leader does it, and this is nothing unique to Starmer. Labour did it under Corbyn, Miliband, Brown, Blair, Smith, Kinnock. The Tories have always done it. Look at JRM running in Scotland early in his political career. Look at Bojo having had Henley and now being in Uxbridge. This is just whiny nonsense to undermine Starmer for no good reason apart from not liking him.

Also, Aaron Bastani is a twat.

 

Under Corbyn the party passed rule changes which put more power in the hands of members. Local members then selected proportionately more local and left MPs as tends to be their preference. The result is as if sympathetic candidates had been favoured but in fact it was an expansion of party democracy.

Starmer and David Evans immediately set about rigging the rules back in favour of the Labour right so members had less of a say. This goes for selections as mentioned, but also for NEC elections and leadership elections. They’ve also tried to gerrymander voting on policy at conference. Or just ignoring that a vote ever happened, as per Proportional Representation.

Ultimately the party is saying, thanks for the membership fees but we nasally oxbridge educated dorks will take it from here.

And whilst that maybe was the way during the New Labour era, and maybe is the way in the tory party- I don’t think its something to be emulated

And if your argument against somebody not being authoritarian is to have a cry about ’well all the other authoritarians did it too!’ well then its probably not a very good argument is it?

Also, since you’re banging the antisemitism drum then maybe you wanna wonder why when its done by those on the right of the party, they end up as shadow justice sec?

Edited November 8, 2022 by mattiloy

[pink_triangle]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

Under Corbyn the party passed rule changes which put more power in the hands of members. Local members then selected proportionately more local and left MPs as tends to be their preference. The result is as if sympathetic candidates had been favoured but in fact it was an expansion of party democracy.

 

Didn't they stop the choice of local members standing to give Tarry (favoured candidate) a clear run.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I agree. The lib Dems leverage in 2010 was in theory they could get into bed with either side. I don't see either lib Dems or SNP in that position this time which weakens their hand.

I can’t see the Lib Dem’s going into any coalition for a very long time given how it ruined them after the last one 😂

Ultimately a Labour minority government would also prove to the voters that there isn’t any ‘coalition of chaos’ which would wipe out that Tory attack line. 

[mattiloy]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Didn't they stop the choice of local members standing to give Tarry (favoured candidate) a clear run.

Jas Athwal was suspended over a sexual harassment allegation leaving it open for Tarry.

[mattiloy]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Jas Athwal was suspended over a sexual harassment allegation leaving it open for Tarry.

I should also add that Tarry still won a vote of local members vs another candidate.

[steviewevie]

Democrats doing better than feared. Still might lose both the House and Senate mind.

[Neil]

11 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t think it’s comparable. The coalition is different and with the added exposure of being in government could then lead to a Lab majority down the line. 

labour in coalition will be forced to do things they'd rather not same as libdems were.

[pink_triangle]

30 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I should also add that Tarry still won a vote of local members vs another candidate.

Although when the allegations were dismissed Athwal comfortably beat Tarry. I guess the Corbyn supporters will be happy the members eventually got what they wanted.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

labour in coalition will be forced to do things they'd rather not same as libdems were.

ok...well labour will be bigger party in that coalition, like tories were when in coalition with libdems, and tories did very well out of that, and libdems really didn't.

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Although when the allegations were dismissed Athwal comfortably beat Tarry. I guess the Corbyn supporters will be happy the members eventually got what they wanted.

I DON'T THINK CORBYN SUPPORTERS DO HAPPY.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Although when the allegations were dismissed Athwal comfortably beat Tarry. I guess the Corbyn supporters will be happy the members eventually got what they wanted.

It’s worth remembering that Corbyn made it easier for members to deselect their MP, it then came back to haunt them with Tarry. 

[steviewevie]

Apparently Sunak considering raising top rate of income tax...either increasing 45p or lowering 150k threshold. Good move if they do it.

[lost]

Didn't have leave the EU then hike the top rate of tax above the French on my 2022 bingo card.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Apparently Sunak considering raising top rate of income tax...either increasing 45p or lowering 150k threshold. Good move if they do it.

Wait for the fine print, it’s never as good as it might seem and also never trust the Tories. 

[kaosmark2]

11 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

Under Corbyn the party passed rule changes which put more power in the hands of members. Local members then selected proportionately more local and left MPs as tends to be their preference. The result is as if sympathetic candidates had been favoured but in fact it was an expansion of party democracy.

Starmer and David Evans immediately set about rigging the rules back in favour of the Labour right so members had less of a say. This goes for selections as mentioned, but also for NEC elections and leadership elections. They’ve also tried to gerrymander voting on policy at conference. Or just ignoring that a vote ever happened, as per Proportional Representation.

Ultimately the party is saying, thanks for the membership fees but we nasally oxbridge educated dorks will take it from here.

And whilst that maybe was the way during the New Labour era, and maybe is the way in the tory party- I don’t think its something to be emulated

And if your argument against somebody not being authoritarian is to have a cry about ’well all the other authoritarians did it too!’ well then its probably not a very good argument is it?

Also, since you’re banging the antisemitism drum then maybe you wanna wonder why when its done by those on the right of the party, they end up as shadow justice sec?

So the same "I don't like the result therefore I'm going to say it's undemocratic" nonsense loads of Corbyn cultists spout.

Cool story bro 

[kaosmark2]

BBC reporting "police officer hurt" in the m25 protests, not that they're arresting journalists.

And lying, because that's what police do.

[steviewevie]

[Guest]

Ah there we go ‘Corbyn’. 

[Guest]

At least short of answers the first few questions about Williamson but then reverted back to his normal tactics for the last couple. Bit odd when Sunak didn’t realise the question has been asked and just sat there. It was closer than previously but Starmer still had this one. 

[Neil]

gaviscon is sold out. 😛