news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

33 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Liberal

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

On top of the biggest fall in living standards for decades. Good job. 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, gizmoman said:

It's an ongoing question of what a worker's real worth is, those who support UBI, universal basic income, need to consider how much someone should be paid to get up at 5 a.m. on a winters morning to sort and deliver their mail, on the other hand how much should a doctor be paid? A postman's job is relatively easy, it doesn't need a lot of skill (at least not when I did it) so where does the balance lie? In my time the pay was fair for what the job entailed, but that was years ago. I agree essential national services should be publically owned (Mail, Rail, Water) but having unions in public services distorts wages (when other services are not unionised).

The thing about early-morning postal/tube-driving type work, is the question of "what would someone accept to do this" is part of the issue. While people acknowledge doctors should be paid more than tube drivers or posties, most people aren't really willing to get up for a low-satisfaction job at stupid hours (which adversely affects physical and mental health, as well as social life).

I'd generally say that as long as the on-call/distasteful hours percentage increase in pay is fairly equal between different public sector jobs, that's reasonable. A GP should probably be paid 40%+ more to work A&E diagnostics vs 9-5, and similarly a postie should probably be paid 40% over minimum wage.

For all the media portrayal of "benefit scroungers", most people want a sense of job satisfaction. They don't necessarily have a high commitment, but the idea that people give zero shits about their job is very rare. Also, under UBI, that'd be even less frequent. If people have their basic needs met (but only their basic needs), they're more likely to take a job that's under-paid for their skill level but has high job-satisfaction or ties in with their passions, in order to pay for their luxuries (particularly as lots of "low-skill" job come with perks of employee discount). 

The thing to bear in mind, is nurses don't quit because they don't want to be a nurse, they quit because it's an unsustainable work-life balance at their wages. Similarly, rail workers don't strike out of sheer greediness, they strike because they're performing an essential service and being proportionally underappreciated. 

I think a lot of people in median-paid office work forget how hard the breadline is, and how hard shift work is. If you're struggling with both, it's fucking horrible. 

The jobs that I can believe would struggle to get staff in a UBI system.... bars, fast food, shift warehouse work, megastore retail, shift work of public transport. Thing is, most of those are currently either treating their staff horribly, or already struggling to get staff. I would foresee UBI leading to a greater balance amidst the workforce, instead of some people doing 0 hours, most doing 35-45, and others doing 65, you'd have lots of people doing 25ish. But even if you say that's a net decrease in "productivity", how many office workers actually work for 37.5 hours? I remember most of the time it being 20-30 hours of work and then a bunch of busy-work, and I imagine that's shifted more since the WFH post-covid revolution. With that shift, hospitality (ie. lunch places and coffee shops) have had demand decrease....

Generally, any union distortion of wages, is a distortion upwards, and it mostly only hurts businesses where staff give zero shits - which usually only happens if an employer is bad.

[steviewevie]

haven't wages been falling...especially now with higher inflation, so maybe they're just asking that they stop getting paid less?

[steviewevie]

Nurses striking a couple of days before christmas....be interesting to see public sentiment on this one, I expect mostly supportive, but a lot will depend on how media portrays it I guess...

[steviewevie]

Also...Amazon's Black Friday has become Make Amazon Pay day with warehouses protesting...this one's a global one though, no union involved (I don't think).

[Neil]

9 hours ago, Ozanne said:

On top of the biggest fall in living standards for decades. Good job. 

labour has space to increase taxes, as the tories did it before backing out.

[steviewevie]

to help cut immigration apparently govt thinking of cutting number of foreign students allowed to go to british universities. Genius.

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

to help cut immigration apparently govt thinking of cutting number of foreign students allowed to go to british universities. Genius.

the students don't create the immigration numbers, its the family that's also allowed that does, would be better to change the family rules than block the students.

[mattiloy]

9 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

The thing about early-morning postal/tube-driving type work, is the question of "what would someone accept to do this" is part of the issue. While people acknowledge doctors should be paid more than tube drivers or posties, most people aren't really willing to get up for a low-satisfaction job at stupid hours (which adversely affects physical and mental health, as well as social life).

I'd generally say that as long as the on-call/distasteful hours percentage increase in pay is fairly equal between different public sector jobs, that's reasonable. A GP should probably be paid 40%+ more to work A&E diagnostics vs 9-5, and similarly a postie should probably be paid 40% over minimum wage.

For all the media portrayal of "benefit scroungers", most people want a sense of job satisfaction. They don't necessarily have a high commitment, but the idea that people give zero shits about their job is very rare. Also, under UBI, that'd be even less frequent. If people have their basic needs met (but only their basic needs), they're more likely to take a job that's under-paid for their skill level but has high job-satisfaction or ties in with their passions, in order to pay for their luxuries (particularly as lots of "low-skill" job come with perks of employee discount). 

The thing to bear in mind, is nurses don't quit because they don't want to be a nurse, they quit because it's an unsustainable work-life balance at their wages. Similarly, rail workers don't strike out of sheer greediness, they strike because they're performing an essential service and being proportionally underappreciated. 

I think a lot of people in median-paid office work forget how hard the breadline is, and how hard shift work is. If you're struggling with both, it's fucking horrible. 

The jobs that I can believe would struggle to get staff in a UBI system.... bars, fast food, shift warehouse work, megastore retail, shift work of public transport. Thing is, most of those are currently either treating their staff horribly, or already struggling to get staff. I would foresee UBI leading to a greater balance amidst the workforce, instead of some people doing 0 hours, most doing 35-45, and others doing 65, you'd have lots of people doing 25ish. But even if you say that's a net decrease in "productivity", how many office workers actually work for 37.5 hours? I remember most of the time it being 20-30 hours of work and then a bunch of busy-work, and I imagine that's shifted more since the WFH post-covid revolution. With that shift, hospitality (ie. lunch places and coffee shops) have had demand decrease....

Generally, any union distortion of wages, is a distortion upwards, and it mostly only hurts businesses where staff give zero shits - which usually only happens if an employer is bad.

The thing is that most of the jobs that you’ve identified as probably struggling to fill posts in a UBI world lend themselves nicely to automation. The reason that they remain largely unautomated is because cheap labour exists and the cost of the investment in machinery exceeds the benefits.

Or if there is no opportunity for automation, then those businesses will go bust and be replaced by something that does it better.

There is no good reason for the existence of megastores in an era of online shopping. Imagine all those square kilometres of retail parks reclaimed for housing or nature.

Cheap labour simply disincentivises investment and progress.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Nurses striking a couple of days before christmas....be interesting to see public sentiment on this one, I expect mostly supportive, but a lot will depend on how media portrays it I guess...

I would think the vast majority will support nurses striking. 

[Neil]

43 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I would think the vast majority will support nurses striking. 

its an awkward one for most people, nurses are meant to help, not stand by and do nothing.

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

People will say the support the nurses today but when peoples grannies knee replacement hospital appointments start being cancelled and blamed on the nurses strike public opinion will shift as it always does.

people can cope with cancelled ops, its when someone dies that might not have  that public opinion will turn.

the nurses have my support and i've seen how overworked some are and also how the very best nurses go the extra mile for their patients, on top of their other tasks (they don't get paid for hours worked when training, either, which is disgusting).

 

 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

people can cope with cancelled ops, its when someone dies that might not have  that public opinion will turn.

the nurses have my support and i've seen how overworked some are and also how the very best nurses go the extra mile for their patients, on top of their other tasks (they don't get paid for hours worked when training, either, which is disgusting).

 

 

I thought they'd be happy with us clapping them every Thursday.

[steviewevie]

I mean, the NHS is fucked anyway, long waiting times for everything. These strikes will probably make these waiting times longer, but will people notice? Emergency stuff won't be affected apparently.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

I thought they'd be happy with us clapping them every Thursday.

they weren't happy with the pay rise they were offered when i was in hospital (i forget what the offer was, it was something tiny, but i don't forget their dissatisfaction with it) we need nurses to stay as nurses, and to encourage them to do the job to their best. they used to be refused decent rises on the supposed basis of 'market forces', so where are the market forces being used with higher wages to keep nurses working in the nhs?

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Neil said:

its an awkward one for most people, nurses are meant to help, not stand by and do nothing.

They are helping by striking, it isn’t just about pay and it’ll ensure patient care is better with better working conditions. 

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean, the NHS is fucked anyway, long waiting times for everything. 

not everything, i know a few people who've recently had decent speedy service. and if the nhs is going to die, at least i've had my  tax-money's worth while its still working.  😛 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

They are helping by striking, it isn’t just about pay and it’ll ensure patient care is better with better working conditions. 

they need to work harder at getting that across.

[steviewevie]

we see what we want to see, but I expect most people more likely blame govt for shit NHS service rather than striking nurses. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by steviewevie

[kaosmark2]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

haven't wages been falling...especially now with higher inflation, so maybe they're just asking that they stop getting paid less?

Yup.

[kaosmark2]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The thing is that most of the jobs that you’ve identified as probably struggling to fill posts in a UBI world lend themselves nicely to automation. The reason that they remain largely unautomated is because cheap labour exists and the cost of the investment in machinery exceeds the benefits.

Or if there is no opportunity for automation, then those businesses will go bust and be replaced by something that does it better.

There is no good reason for the existence of megastores in an era of online shopping. Imagine all those square kilometres of retail parks reclaimed for housing or nature.

Cheap labour simply disincentivises investment and progress.

Absolutely. Capitalism requires the exploitation of workers to fuel itself, and automation is only being done as a threat to pressure workers into accepting worse conditions/pay. 

There's enough productivity to not need 40 hour weeks, but if the poor start having energy to feel happy, the rich will get scared.

[lost]

Labour going to cut taxes apparently:

 

[lost]

other things from the interview:

Taxes need to come down from their highest level since WW2

No Swiss style post-brexit deal with the EU

Doesn't want to see labour MP's on picket lines.

No time for Scottish Indy Ref

99.9% of women are biological and straight forward but don't abuse a small group who are confused about their gender.

No chance Corbyn coming back.

Favourite conservative politician was Winston Churchill.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, lost said:

Labour going to cut taxes apparently:

 

He’s got a point considering that taxes are the highest in a century.

It’s also worth remembering that at some point Labour will announce their policy on taxing the wealthy as well.