news & politics:discussion

[Justiceforcedave]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

it isn't necessarily untrue though?

Neither was everything Boris said. Who knows? England might become the new promised land because of Brexit....in like 10 years. But whatever.

In this specific case you are right. It's not necessarily untrue, but it does seem to fly in the face of what economists think. We don't give the Tories a pass when they say something that contradicts expert opinion for political gain.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Justiceforcedave said:

Whilst 'playing the game' is sadly always going to be part of politics, giving politicians a pass for saying things that are untrue because their overarching politics are agreeable to us is a slippery slope.

An untruth about the economic consequences of Brexit is an untruth. Doesn't matter if it comes out of Kier Starmer or Boris John's mouth.

Labour have to play the game otherwise they don’t stand a chance of getting elected due to the system being stacked against them.

They can either play the game and have a chance of winning power or be all virtuous and never get anywhere. It’s as simple as that. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ozanne

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Labour have to play the game otherwise they don’t stand a chance of getting elected due to the system being stacked against them.

They can either play the game and have a chance of winning power or be all virtuous and never get anywhere. It’s as simple as that. 

I just can't see any rejoining of single market or customs union or EU happening under Labour because it splits their voters...they just don't want to go near it...but what could happen is various trade and other deals happen which brings us closer and more aligned...

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I just can't see any rejoining of single market or customs union or EU happening under Labour because it splits their voters...they just don't want to go near it...but what could happen is various trade and other deals happen which brings us closer and more aligned...

It will do at some stage, I would imagine if Labour get in then eventually they could say that the countries finances are worst than first thought then they’ll use that as the excuse for closer realignment. The trade deal is up for review in 2026 anyway.

The EU might not even have us back. 

[Justiceforcedave]

27 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Labour have to play the game otherwise they don’t stand a chance of getting elected due to the system being stacked against them.

They can either play the game and have a chance of winning power or be all virtuous and never get anywhere. It’s as simple as that. 

Of course they do. Everyone has to play the game. But we should call it what it is. You don't get a pass from me just because you're on the side I want to win.

I want Labour to win the next election...but I also think saying that rejoining the single market would not be of benefit to the economy is a load of old cobblers. I understand the point in saying. I don't have to like it. 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Justiceforcedave said:

Of course they do. Everyone has to play the game. But we should call it what it is. You don't get a pass from me just because you're on the side I want to win.

I want Labour to win the next election...but I also think saying that rejoining the single market would not be of benefit to the economy is a load of old cobblers. I understand the point in saying. I don't have to like it. 

Did he actually say that being in the SM would not boost growth?

[Justiceforcedave]

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Did he actually say that being in the SM would not boost growth?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/05/reversing-brexit-now-would-not-help-uk-economy-says-keir-starmer

[kaosmark2]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Interesting that Labour working with Gordon Brown on policy...Brown obviously one of the main architects of New Labour, but not as despised as Blair or Mandelson.

Brown wasn't behind lying to parliament about the Iraq war. He wasn't behind shutting down Labour implementing the Jenkins review like Prescott. He wasn't a spin doctor.

Generally, Brown was the most senior member in New Labour who didn't visibly lose his principles while in power. He was also the target of Tory bullshit for years.

Edited December 5, 2022 by kaosmark2

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Justiceforcedave said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/05/reversing-brexit-now-would-not-help-uk-economy-says-keir-starmer

He says ‘No, at this stage…’ which is true because it would mean months/years of negotiating which wouldn’t provide growth.

He’s essentially saying we can’t join the SM for years and wants to focus on what we can do now to provide growth. 

[kaosmark2]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

He says ‘No, at this stage…’ which is true because it would mean months/years of negotiating which wouldn’t provide growth.

He’s essentially saying we can’t join the SM for years and wants to focus on what we can do now to provide growth. 

It absolutely would provide growth. What's inhibiting the UK economy is uncertainty. Regardless of a long negotiation about details, rejoining would provide certainty.

[Justiceforcedave]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

He says ‘No, at this stage…’ which is true because it would mean months/years of negotiating which wouldn’t provide growth.

He’s essentially saying we can’t join the SM for years and wants to focus on what we can do now to provide growth. 

"...and there’s no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market."

It's a sing song to win over voters who support Brexit. Here are some tweets from experts collated by the Guardian.

 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Justiceforcedave said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/05/reversing-brexit-now-would-not-help-uk-economy-says-keir-starmer

that last bit doesn't make much sense....but anyway...realpolitik and all that, obviously they think they need to not be remainy/rejoiny at all...they just need to get elected first and are obviously cacking it that somehow they will still lose...

[steviewevie]

51 minutes ago, Justiceforcedave said:

"...and there’s no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market."

It's a sing song to win over voters who support Brexit. Here are some tweets from experts collated by the Guardian.

 

well yeah...experts collated by guardian...labour doesn't need to win over remainers or guardian readers...it needs to win over people who voted for brexit and boris and read the sun.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Justiceforcedave said:

"...and there’s no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market."

It's a sing song to win over voters who support Brexit. Here are some tweets from experts collated by the Guardian.

 

Yes, as I pointed out he said ‘No, at this stage…’ 

He also says ‘Do I think years of years of wrangling, years of uncertainty will help our economy? No I do not.’ So that’s why at this moment in time there isn’t a case for it.

It will take time before we can get back into the SM so therefore we can’t get the benefits from it till that that moment in time.

[steviewevie]

winter is coming

[steviewevie]

Just now, Ozanne said:

Yes, as I pointed out he said ‘No, at this stage…’ 

He also says ‘Do I think years of years of wrangling, years of uncertainty will help our economy? No I do not.’ So that’s why at this moment in time there isn’t a case for it.

It will take time before we can get back into the SM so therefore we can’t get the benefits from it till that that moment in time.

brexit was exhausting...surely no one wants to go back to arguing about that again....plus, we have all the indo-pacific countries right on our doorstep...

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

Brown wasn't behind lying to parliament about the Iraq war. He wasn't behind shutting down Labour implementing the Jenkins review like Prescott. He wasn't a spin doctor.

Generally, Brown was the most senior member in New Labour who didn't visibly lose his principles while in power. He was also the target of Tory bullshit for years.

He was sexy too, whereas Blair was geek.

[mattiloy]

I know I go on at Starmer but in fairness to the guy, I didnt realise he will be reignite Britain’s economy.

[steviewevie]

Seal of approval from the saviour of socialism...

 

[fraybentos1]

 

What's the excuse for this? Presumably Labour's huge lead in the polls would evaporate if starmer didn't say that asylum seekers should be GPS tracked

[steviewevie]

 

[Justiceforcedave]

22 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

 

What's the excuse for this? Presumably Labour's huge lead in the polls would evaporate if starmer didn't say that asylum seekers should be GPS tracked

Doubling down on snapping up those disillusioned Conservative voters? Totally messing with the front pages of the rightwing tabloid press?

[kaosmark2]

23 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

 

What's the excuse for this? Presumably Labour's huge lead in the polls would evaporate if starmer didn't say that asylum seekers should be GPS tracked

Haven't read the article yet, but unless it's literally the same restrictions on GPS tagging asylum seekers as violent criminals, and only in similarly extreme cases, this is authoritarian dog whistle bullshit.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

brexit was exhausting...surely no one wants to go back to arguing about that again....plus, we have all the indo-pacific countries right on our doorstep...

That’s the point and polling shows people don’t want those arguments again especially after the last few years. 

[Guest]

Oh dear.