What makes a Pyramid headliner? (Geek alert)

[jimmillen]

Following the discussion on the 2022 headliners thread I started getting a bit curious about what, exactly, defines a Pyramid headliner - and wondered is there anything we can learn from looking at previous years? 

This led me down a total rabbit hole of Wikipedia and, sheesh, I must be a sad geek 'cos I've put it all in a spreadsheet... 🤓

I've only gone back to 2008, it's an arbitrary distinction but I seem to recall that's when Emily started running more of the bookings. And I had to draw the line somewhere, I wasn't going to go back to the 70s. 😂

Anyway! What can we discover?

• Of "popular" acts that are Pyramid headliners, they have on average 5 albums at the time of headlining, 4 top 5 UK albums, 3 top 5 US albums, 4 UK top 5 singles and 2 US top 5 singles.*
• For acts headlining the Pyramid for the first time having previously played the festival, they'd made fewer previous appearances than I expected - only 1.5 on average.
• There's no standout stepping stone to Pyramid headlining - for debut Pyramid headliners who have previously played the festival, 2 previously subbed on the Pyramid, 2 were third down, 3 played the sub slot on the Other stage and 2 were 3rd down on Other.
• Headlining the Other stage is the kiss of death for headlining the Pyramid! No acts in this period have done so - did we already know this? I didn't...
• "Legend" acts headlining the Pyramid are often new to the festival - for 7 out of 11, it was their first appearance on any stage.
• Bands outnumber solo acts - 20 to 13. But on the other hand, the planned 2020 line-up was the first year where all 3 Pyramid headliners were solo acts. Far too early to tell if this is a trend.
• By far the majority of Pyramid headliners are either popular acts (Big names, multiple charting albums/singles, big tours etc.) or legends (acts with over 20 years legacy & cultural recognition) with 27 out of the 33 headliners falling into these categories.

There's probably more to figure out from this, but I've run out of steam to look into it any more.

Does this give us any solid rules to help with future headliner speculation? Absolutely not, Emily & the GFL team will no doubt throw curveballs into the mix.

Will I get flamed on here for how I've categorised acts? Almost certainly.

Am I going to do this for the Other & lower stages? Am I bollocks.

Has anyone already done this analysis? Don't tell me if they have, I might cry.

Anyway, it's out there for what it's worth. Have at it. 😄

* I haven't assessed this in a particularly sophisticated way. Clearly US-based acts like Jay-Z have far more US chart successes, while the opposite is true for acts with a UK fanbase such as Kasabian. Taylor is single-handedly skewing the results thanks to the absurd number of hits she's had. If anyone wants to dig into this more, be my guest...

[nikkic]

7 hours ago, jimmillen said:

Following the discussion on the 2022 headliners thread I started getting a bit curious about what, exactly, defines a Pyramid headliner - and wondered is there anything we can learn from looking at previous years? 

This led me down a total rabbit hole of Wikipedia and, sheesh, I must be a sad geek 'cos I've put it all in a spreadsheet... 🤓

I've only gone back to 2008, it's an arbitrary distinction but I seem to recall that's when Emily started running more of the bookings. And I had to draw the line somewhere, I wasn't going to go back to the 70s. 😂

Anyway! What can we discover?

• Of "popular" acts that are Pyramid headliners, they have on average 5 albums at the time of headlining, 4 top 5 UK albums, 3 top 5 US albums, 4 UK top 5 singles and 2 US top 5 singles.*
• For acts headlining the Pyramid for the first time having previously played the festival, they'd made fewer previous appearances than I expected - only 1.5 on average.
• There's no standout stepping stone to Pyramid headlining - for debut Pyramid headliners who have previously played the festival, 2 previously subbed on the Pyramid, 2 were third down, 3 played the sub slot on the Other stage and 2 were 3rd down on Other.
• Headlining the Other stage is the kiss of death for headlining the Pyramid! No acts in this period have done so - did we already know this? I didn't...
• "Legend" acts headlining the Pyramid are often new to the festival - for 7 out of 11, it was their first appearance on any stage.
• Bands outnumber solo acts - 20 to 13. But on the other hand, the planned 2020 line-up was the first year where all 3 Pyramid headliners were solo acts. Far too early to tell if this is a trend.
• By far the majority of Pyramid headliners are either popular acts (Big names, multiple charting albums/singles, big tours etc.) or legends (acts with over 20 years legacy & cultural recognition) with 27 out of the 33 headliners falling into these categories.

There's probably more to figure out from this, but I've run out of steam to look into it any more.

Does this give us any solid rules to help with future headliner speculation? Absolutely not, Emily & the GFL team will no doubt throw curveballs into the mix.

Will I get flamed on here for how I've categorised acts? Almost certainly.

Am I going to do this for the Other & lower stages? Am I bollocks.

Has anyone already done this analysis? Don't tell me if they have, I might cry.

Anyway, it's out there for what it's worth. Have at it. 😄

* I haven't assessed this in a particularly sophisticated way. Clearly US-based acts like Jay-Z have far more US chart successes, while the opposite is true for acts with a UK fanbase such as Kasabian. Taylor is single-handedly skewing the results thanks to the absurd number of hits she's had. If anyone wants to dig into this more, be my guest...

So are Foals big enough? 

[Hugh Jass]

For me there are three distinct types of headliner:

Heritage - Pretty obvious, acts who have been around for decades, are well known and loved and can pull off a headline set with ease. Examples - Macca, The Stones, The Who, Radiohead

Current - Acts who are amongst the biggest in the world right now in their respect genres. They headline festivals and sell out stadia regularly, very little argument over their credentials. Examples - Coldplay, Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, Kanye West, Arctic Monkeys

New - This is usually the contentious one. Acts who are usually headlining for the first time but may or may not have headlined elsewhere. Some may have worked their up to the slot over a number of years, others are thrust in there due to instant success or cultural relevance. Will always spark a debate over whether they should be there. Examples - Stormzy, Arcade Fire, Mumfords.

[jimmillen]

18 minutes ago, nikkic said:

So are Foals big enough? 

Let's have a look!

So... festival background first. They've played the festival 5 times before, highest previous placement Pyramid sub. They have this in common with several previous Pyramid headliners, so it's a tick in the box.

Next up - back catalogue. They have 6 studio albums now, could be more by the time of headlining assuming 2023 or later. This is above average for a pyramid headliner - another plus point for them. Plenty of material for a headline set.

Now onto the thorny issue of how popular they are...

Foals have no top 5 singles in either UK or US, and no top 5 albums in the US. However, 5 of their albums have reached the top 5 in the UK. 

This makes them most comparable with these previous debut headliners - not surprising really 🙂:

• Kings of Leon - 3 albums, all top 5 UK, no hit singles or US chart success
• Kasabian - 5 albums, 4 top 5 UK albums, 1 top 5 UK chart single, no US chart success

On this precedent I'd say yes, they are big enough. *Ducks and runs* 😆

 

 

 

[st dan]

5 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

For me there are three distinct types of headliner:

Heritage - Pretty obvious, acts who have been around for decades, are well known and loved and can pull off a headline set with ease. Examples - Macca, The Stones, The Who, Radiohead

Current - Acts who are amongst the biggest in the world right now in their respect genres. They headline festivals and sell out stadia regularly, very little argument over their credentials. Examples - Coldplay, Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, Kanye West, Arctic Monkeys

New - This is usually the contentious one. Acts who are usually headlining for the first time but may or may not have headlined elsewhere. Some may have worked their up to the slot over a number of years, others are thrust in there due to instant success or cultural relevance. Will always spark a debate over whether they should be there. Examples - Stormzy, Arcade Fire, Mumfords.

Agree with this, and would add there is debate over a fourth category - ‘The Journeymen/women’. Those that have been around for a number years and have had some commercial success and a healthy following, but not quite made headline status for the biggest show in the world. Bands such as Foals, Wolf Alice, The 1975, The xx. Some debate over whether these should be given a shot ahead of those new, ‘flavour of the month’ acts. 

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

Agree with this, and would add there is debate over a fourth category - ‘The Journeymen/women’. Those that have been around for a number years and have had some commercial success and a healthy following, but not quite made headline status for the biggest show in the world. Bands such as Foals, Wolf Alice, The 1975, The xx. Some debate over whether these should be given a shot ahead of those new, ‘flavour of the month’ acts. 

Haha yes I like this, or the “goodwill” options.

Bands that are touted as headliners on here because they are friends of the festival and it would be doing them a favour. Despite the fact that the venues they play aren’t up to scratch.

[Matt42]

Purely a speculation factor here - but I think there’s also a point of whether the festival sees you as a headliner.

Plenty of acts have headlined various festivals across the circuit, but are not considered Glastonbury headliners.

Biffy Clyro, Noel Gallagher, Foals etc have headlined various festivals but when they play the G they are on sub duties.

I think the festival doesn’t bump up acts like this because there is no ‘trajectory’. They will still be the same size this time next year. Whereas acts like Stormzy etc are going to continue to trend upwards.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Matt42

[Mardy]

The journeyman headliners are never going to give the festival the publicity they need. My metric is the 'lunchbreak test'.

When I'm sitting on my break with my colleagues and they go 'Oi, Mardy, you smelly hippy, you off to that there Glastonbury then? Looks awful, mud and drugs and that, wouldn't;t catch me going in a hundred years. Anyway, who's playing?'.

If I say the headliners and am met with a blank expression and a shrug, which let's be honest would happen with Wolf Alice, and probably Foals, then they're not headliner status.

 

[Mardy]

Remember when Stormzy was announced and everyone on here was texting their aged parents to see if they knew who Stormzy was? And most of them new he was one of those rappers they have nowadays. That, I reckon was pretty illuminating.

[jimmillen]

3 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Haha yes I like this, or the “goodwill” options.

Bands that are touted as headliners on here because they are friends of the festival and it would be doing them a favour. Despite the fact that the venues they play aren’t up to scratch.

 

I considered started some sort of "touring scale" on the spreadsheet to indicate the level of gigs acts can sell out - i.e. are they playing global stadium tours, more local arenas, smaller venues, headlining other festivals etc.

I gave up because it's a lot harder to pull together that data & I needed to go to sleep 😂

I'm conscious that the album & single chart success definitely doesn't tell the whole story of "popularity". If I can be bothered later I might try to add in some other measures like YouTube views, social media follows, Spotify streams etc. The tricky bit is working that out at the point the act headlined - it's easy enough to do it for their current status...

[Hugh Jass]

12 minutes ago, st dan said:

Agree with this, and would add there is debate over a fourth category - ‘The Journeymen/women’. Those that have been around for a number years and have had some commercial success and a healthy following, but not quite made headline status for the biggest show in the world. Bands such as Foals, Wolf Alice, The 1975, The xx. Some debate over whether these should be given a shot ahead of those new, ‘flavour of the month’ acts. 

When was the last time we had a booking like that though? The likes of Foals and Biffy floated near the top of the bill for years but nobody ever actually gave them the nod. I suspect the 1975’s time to headline may have been and gone too. I’m not sure the festival looks at it in a sort of “well I suppose it’s their turn” way, I certainly can’t think of any recent examples that could apply to.

[Hugh Jass]

The fourth category of headliner is simply Coldplay.

[Matt42]

3 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

When was the last time we had a booking like that though? The likes of Foals and Biffy floated near the top of the bill for years but nobody ever actually gave them the nod. I suspect the 1975’s time to headline may have been and gone too. I’m not sure the festival looks at it in a sort of “well I suppose it’s their turn” way, I certainly can’t think of any recent examples that could apply to.

I reckon the 1975 have fallen into the ‘nah’ bin for glasto. 

[stuartbert two hats]

22 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

For me there are three distinct types of headliner:

Heritage - Pretty obvious, acts who have been around for decades, are well known and loved and can pull off a headline set with ease. Examples - Macca, The Stones, The Who, Radiohead

Current - Acts who are amongst the biggest in the world right now in their respect genres. They headline festivals and sell out stadia regularly, very little argument over their credentials. Examples - Coldplay, Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, Kanye West, Arctic Monkeys

New - This is usually the contentious one. Acts who are usually headlining for the first time but may or may not have headlined elsewhere. Some may have worked their up to the slot over a number of years, others are thrust in there due to instant success or cultural relevance. Will always spark a debate over whether they should be there. Examples - Stormzy, Arcade Fire, Mumfords.

How many acts have headlined both as current and heritage? The obvious ones are Radiohead, The Cure and maybe Muse. The you have Pyramid staples who aren't perhaps quite as long in the tooth, but have still headlined more than once and have a stable enough fan base to do it again in the future. I'm thinking Coldplay and The Arctic Monkeys.

[Quark]

7 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Remember when Stormzy was announced and everyone on here was texting their aged parents to see if they knew who Stormzy was? And most of them new he was one of those rappers they have nowadays. That, I reckon was pretty illuminating.

Still a highlight that one.  Properly made me giggle.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, stuartbert two hats said:

How many acts have headlined both as current and heritage? The obvious ones are Radiohead, The Cure and maybe Muse. The you have Pyramid staples who aren't perhaps quite as long in the tooth, but have still headlined more than once and have a stable enough fan base to do it again in the future. I'm thinking Coldplay and The Arctic Monkeys.

At what point do Coldplay and Arctic’s become heritage acts? 

[jimmillen]

2 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

The fourth category of headliner is simply Coldplay.

Actually, they're only equal top - The Cure have also headlined 4 times. But their headline appearances date back to 1986! Coldplay OTOH have headlined that many times in 19 years. It's just greedy really. 

[Hugh Jass]

4 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I reckon the 1975 have fallen into the ‘nah’ bin for glasto. 

Yeah I suspect they will be confined to the Foals/Biffy bin that exists somewhere between Sub and Headliner.

We’ll need to make room in there for Royal Blood soon.

[Quark]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Yeah I suspect they will be confined to the Foals/Biffy bin that exists somewhere between Sub and Headliner.

We’ll need to make room in there for Royal Blood soon.

 

[st dan]

On a side note for bands such as Foals, Biffy etc - has a consensus been reached as to whether it’s a bigger draw for an act to sub the Pyramid, or headline The Other Stage? Which is held in higher regard? 

[kingcrawler]

19 minutes ago, Mardy said:

The journeyman headliners are never going to give the festival the publicity they need. My metric is the 'lunchbreak test'.

When I'm sitting on my break with my colleagues and they go 'Oi, Mardy, you smelly hippy, you off to that there Glastonbury then? Looks awful, mud and drugs and that, wouldn't;t catch me going in a hundred years. Anyway, who's playing?'.

If I say the headliners and am met with a blank expression and a shrug, which let's be honest would happen with Wolf Alice, and probably Foals, then they're not headliner status.

 

I think going by the headliners over the last decade or so most of them do fit this criteria. The only real outsiders are Arcade Fire and maybe even Kendrick Lamar? Other than that, the rest have all been very big names either through being heritage acts or big current acts who are very much in the public eye. 

[Mardy]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

On a side note for bands such as Foals, Biffy etc - has a consensus been reached as to whether it’s a bigger draw for an act to sub the Pyramid, or headline The Other Stage? Which is held in higher regard? 

Subbing the Pyramid get you a lot more telly exposure and, presumably, a lot more sales in the following week. Ego says Other, wallet says Pyramid.

[Hugh Jass]

9 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

At what point do Coldplay and Arctic’s become heritage acts? 

A good question, I would say they're still current as they are still releasing albums that sell incredibly well and still considered "relevant" in popular culture. I'd say Blur and Radiohead have tipped over into heritage acts.

There's no hard and fast rule, but I'd say when an act's best and most beloved work is from a couple of decades ago then they have tipped into heritage. Doesn't mean they're not still making and releasing music, but how many at The Stones for instance were grooving off Doom and Gloom? (They should have because it's a fucking great tune)

[Mardy]

Just now, kingcrawler said:

I think going by the headliners over the last decade or so most of them do fit this criteria. The only real outsiders are Arcade Fire and maybe even Kendrick Lamar? Other than that, the rest have all been very big names either through being heritage acts or big current acts who are very much in the public eye. 

Yeah, and I think this is reflective of Glastonbury's repositioning as a mainstream cultural event. The festival needs really big names to get the headliners to ensure the demand for tickets. I'm not saying that's a positive or negative development, but it's definitely something that is considered more these days than in the 80s/90s

[dentalplan]

2 minutes ago, st dan said:

On a side note for bands such as Foals, Biffy etc - has a consensus been reached as to whether it’s a bigger draw for an act to sub the Pyramid, or headline The Other Stage? Which is held in higher regard? 

Well, from this thread we know that the Other Stage is acceptance of defeat and the closest to a headline slot the act will get! Subs can still go onto headline. Although if Dua Lipa headlined the Other last year, I don't think we'd be writing her off the top slot.

8 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Yeah I suspect they will be confined to the Foals/Biffy bin that exists somewhere between Sub and Headliner.

We’ll need to make room in there for Royal Blood soon.

Biffy subbed already since making headline status elsewhere. They're out of the bin.