What makes a Pyramid headliner? (Geek alert)

[Euphoricape]

Would love to see Wolf Alice headline, they were amazing in the live stream and 3 solid albums of awesomeness.

[Hugh Jass]

Personally, and this is just my view, I feel an act shouldn't headline until they've got at least three albums in the can.

[jimmillen]

22 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Personally, and this is just my view, I feel an act shouldn't headline until they've got at least three albums in the can.

If I was the sarcastic sort, I'd say that Mumfords rather prove your point there. 😉

ETA: Stormzy of course being the counter example...

Edited May 25, 2021 by jimmillen

[Matt42]

19 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Personally, and this is just my view, I feel an act shouldn't headline until they've got at least three albums in the can.

I feel like the market doesn’t work like this anymore though. Acts become big enough to headline *faster* as streaming cuts around corners that album sales were often restricted by.

In the past I think you needed 3+ albums just to get on people’s radar.  Now you can become literally huge from one album.

[jimmillen]

1 hour ago, Matt42 said:

Purely a speculation factor here - but I think there’s also a point of whether the festival sees you as a headliner.

Plenty of acts have headlined various festivals across the circuit, but are not considered Glastonbury headliners.

Biffy Clyro, Noel Gallagher, Foals etc have headlined various festivals but when they play the G they are on sub duties.

I think the festival doesn’t bump up acts like this because there is no ‘trajectory’. They will still be the same size this time next year. Whereas acts like Stormzy etc are going to continue to trend upwards.

If you were to measure top 3 on both Pyramid & Other stage over the years I reckon you could work out a sort of "plateau rating" showing where an act has stalled & is unlikely to ever headline the Pyramid.

But frankly sod that, it was tedious enough doing it for 33 performances, I'm not doing it for another 165. There is a limit to my geekiness. 😂

[Ted Dansons Wig]

Do they get played on Radio 2 and will they get viewers on a Saturday night on BBC 2? 

 

 

[Hugh Jass]

4 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I feel like the market doesn’t work like this anymore though. Acts become big enough to headline *faster* as streaming cuts around corners that album sales were often restricted by.

In the past I think you needed 3+ albums just to get on people’s radar.  Now you can become literally huge from one album.

You are probably right about things moving on, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking on this might be a little old fashioned. I just don't see how an act can have the necessary gravitas to headline off of just one or two albums (yeah, I know it's been done before and done well by all accounts).

[found home in 2009]

6 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I feel like the market doesn’t work like this anymore though. Acts become big enough to headline *faster* as streaming cuts around corners that album sales were often restricted by.

In the past I think you needed 3+ albums just to get on people’s radar.  Now you can become literally huge from one album.

A headline slot is 90 mins to 2 hours. An average album is about 45 mins long. Personally I don't think artists with only one album have enough material to justify a headline slot. Though I'd say if you have 2 really solid albums that's enough.

[Hugh Jass]

4 minutes ago, found home in 2009 said:

A headline slot is 90 mins to 2 hours. An average album is about 45 mins long. Personally I don't think artists with only one album have enough material to justify a headline slot. Though I'd say if you have 2 really solid albums that's enough.

If you have two or fewer albums then you're throwing more or less everything you've got to offer at the set. For whatever reason I don't really like that.

[jimmillen]

7 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

I feel like the market doesn’t work like this anymore though. Acts become big enough to headline *faster* as streaming cuts around corners that album sales were often restricted by.

In the past I think you needed 3+ albums just to get on people’s radar.  Now you can become literally huge from one album.

I agree with this in absolute terms. But I also reckon that Emily & the team have a strong eye for the spectacle of a headliner - will they put on a good show? It's tough to do this without a strong back catalogue. Not impossible - see Stormzy! - but in general, having more material to draw from enhances the performance.

Sorry to keep bashing Mumfords*, but I think their closing number illustrates the problem perfectly - they had to bring out a whole crowd of special guests to perform a Beatles cover. It felt like a forced attempt to create a "special Glastonbury moment". A band with a stronger track record wouldn't have needed to do that.

*No I'm not. 😏

[st dan]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

If you have two or fewer albums then you're throwing more or less everything you've got to offer at the set. For whatever reason I don't really like that.

Yep, or pad the set out with ‘special guest’ appearances and cover songs - which is my biggest bugbare. 

R&L have identified this as an issue and created the whole ‘co-headliner’ thing to accommodate such acts. Wonder if Glastonbury would consider something similar in the future? (I hope not)

Edited May 25, 2021 by st dan

[circus92]

47 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Personally, and this is just my view, I feel an act shouldn't headline until they've got at least three albums in the can.

Completely agree with this

[jimmillen]

16 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

You are probably right about things moving on, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking on this might be a little old fashioned. I just don't see how an act can have the necessary gravitas to headline off of just one or two albums (yeah, I know it's been done before and done well by all accounts).

By far the majority of first time headliners have 3 albums or more at the time of headlining.

The only exceptions since 2008 have been Mumfords in 2013 (2 albums, generally considered a bit mediocre) and Stormzy (1 album, smashed it).

So Stormzy is definitely the exception that proves the rule, IMO.

I'm all for the festival booking acts like Stormzy who can knock it out of the park at a very early stage in their careers, but there aren't very many around with the talent and performance to do it.

[jimmillen]

2 hours ago, Mardy said:

The journeyman headliners are never going to give the festival the publicity they need. My metric is the 'lunchbreak test'.

When I'm sitting on my break with my colleagues and they go 'Oi, Mardy, you smelly hippy, you off to that there Glastonbury then? Looks awful, mud and drugs and that, wouldn't;t catch me going in a hundred years. Anyway, who's playing?'.

If I say the headliners and am met with a blank expression and a shrug, which let's be honest would happen with Wolf Alice, and probably Foals, then they're not headliner status.

 

Looking at the years since 2008, it definitely seems like the festival want to get at least one act every year with a "wow" factor - not just a big name, but a massive act. Often exclusive to Glastonbury for that year.

Then chuck in another very well known artist/band that passes your lunchbreak test (I like that BTW 🙂). Often these ones will also be headlining at other festivals.

I reckon if they've got those two nailed down then they're happier to go a bit more niche with the remaining headliner, choosing someone who has critical acclaim.

Taking 2020 as an example, I'd say both Macca (more so) and Taylor fall into that "wow" category. Then you've got Kendrick who possibly wouldn't pass the lunchbreak test, but introduces something new & vibrant for the festival.

[jimmillen]

1 hour ago, Euphoricape said:

Would love to see Wolf Alice headline, they were amazing in the live stream and 3 solid albums of awesomeness.

Me too! But it looks unlikely for them on their next appearance. Their highest slot to date was 5th down on the Pyramid, nobody has made the jump to headline from that level. Another performance high up on Pyramid or Other, maybe another solid album, and reckon they'd be in with a shout for the future. 

[maelzoid]

So, according to all this maths, what's the verdict on this lot?

• Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
• Pearl Jam
• Depeche Mode
• The National
• Rage Against The Machine
• Dave
• Rihanna
• Olivia Rodrigo
• Justin Bieber
• BTS
• Eminem

 

[jimmillen]

1 minute ago, maelzoid said:

So, according to all this maths, what's the verdict on this lot?

• Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
• Pearl Jam
• Depeche Mode
• The National
• Rage Against The Machine
• Dave
• Rihanna
• Olivia Rodrigo
• Justin Bieber
• BTS
• Eminem

 

FFS, I have a day job y'know 😂

I'll try & have a look later on.

[maelzoid]

3 minutes ago, jimmillen said:

Me too! But it looks unlikely for them on their next appearance. Their highest slot to date was 5th down on the Pyramid, nobody has made the jump to headline from that level. Another performance high up on Pyramid or Other, maybe another solid album, and reckon they'd be in with a shout for the future. 

I love them too, but their next tour is still academies, rather than arenas (which for someone holding a ticket is great btw). The thing is, as we are in the streaming / playlist era, it will take either a couple of massive singles for them to break through to the arena level, or the steady accruing of fans with each album which could see them hit that level in a decade or so (I'd compare that to some like The National or Steven Wilson, who are very much album acts who have taken a long time to be playing arenas, but nevertheless have a loyal fanbase).

[maelzoid]

3 minutes ago, jimmillen said:

FFS, I have a day job y'know 😂

I'll try & have a look later on.

Can't you just type them into the spreadsheet...?

[jimmillen]

Just now, maelzoid said:

Can't you just type them into the spreadsheet...?

Alas, all the data on albums, singles, previous appearances etc. doesn't just enter itself 😉

 

[dentalplan]

1 hour ago, Hugh Jass said:

Of course, because when Arcade Fire was announced everyone said "I can't wait to see the Grammy award winners Arcade Fire!"

Foos are the biggest rock band in the world right now by any measure you care to name, and have been for years. They headlined off of Sonic Highways which was a big album and had a documentary to go with it. They were definitely still current in 2017.

Nobody said they were ”the new band Arcade Fire” either. They were current - current outside of the mainstream but they weren’t given a bump up. Nobody thought Kendrick Lamar was an up-and-comer either and Beyoncé was seven years on from Crazy in Love.

Foos played 2 songs out of 20 from Sonic Highways in their headline set. Go figure.

[maelzoid]

While we're at it, what about:

• Imagine Dragons
• The Weeknd
• Post Malone
• 21 Pilots
• Bruno Mars

They're all huge by anyone's standards, but I don't know anyone who listens to their music except children.

[st dan]

4 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

While we're at it, what about:

• Imagine Dragons
• The Weeknd
• Post Malone
• 21 Pilots
• Bruno Mars

They're all huge by anyone's standards, but I don't know anyone who listens to their music except children.

 

“I’ll take them all”. 

[jimmillen]

4 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

While we're at it, what about:

• Imagine Dragons
• The Weeknd
• Post Malone
• 21 Pilots
• Bruno Mars

They're all huge by anyone's standards, but I don't know anyone who listens to their music except children.

Hmmm... On a very subjective level, there seems to be some sort of "suitable for Glastonbury" filter - there's never been a purely commercial pop headliner without some degree of critical credibility and acclaim - together with some level of appeal to a broad demographic.

Christ knows if there's any way to back that up with data, I'm not sure historical records exist to compare the Radio 1, 2 and 6 Music playlists 😬

[Matt42]

18 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

So, according to all this maths, what's the verdict on this lot?

• Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - not mainstream enough 
• Pearl Jam - should have headlined years ago but computer seems to be saying no 
• Depeche Mode - as above
• The National - no
• Rage Against The Machine - should headline. Not sure it will happen though 
• Dave - Will headline eventually 
• Rihanna - Should have headlined years ago but she’s quit music.
• Olivia Rodrigo - May headline one year 
• Justin Bieber - No
• BTS - Big enough to headline but I don’t think they are on the festivals radar. Think they’d want to play exclusively to their fans.
• Eminem - could have headlined at some stage but the festival clearly isn’t bothered.