Football 2021/2022

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

I've seen that image posted around loads recently, I actually think it's more damming for Bruce, Newcastle were an established PL because of Rafa, Bruce spent 100m plus on top of that foundation and they were no better for it.

Alternatively you could say that Bruce went against teams with a higher wage bill in a far higher proportion of games. In reality I have read quite a bit of discussion about the statistics and the vast majority have (as you often see with football fans) just twisted the stats to fit their predetermined view. My view is the comparison is meaningless, there are way too many variables changed in both situations to make any sort of comparison.

In fact most managerial stats are pretty pointless. Many seem to compare different managers win percentages which is stupid as 30% is success for some managers and dreadful for others.

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, charlierc said:

 you'd think Newcastle had just sacked the second coming of Alf Ramsey and Brian Clough rolled into one rather than somebody whose best PL career finish was 9th

I mean he probably has never had a top 8 budget, so I don't think I would expect much more. My view is like many mid/lower premiership managers he has had a mixed career. There have been many worse premiership managers, but at the same time I would rather some new faces get on the merry go round.

[WS_Jack_III]

2 hours ago, charlierc said:

I seem to recall that's how some Everton fans welcomed Benitez. Though tbf that was also covered in an uncomplimentary manner.

That was my point, I don't recall seeing it as much as the Bruce sob story.

[WS_Jack_III]

34 minutes ago, eastynh said:

Would the Newcastle fans wecome Solskjaer as manager?

Not now I wouldn't have thought but pre takeover I bet loads would over Bruce.

[thetime]

39 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

That was my point, I don't recall seeing it as much as the Bruce sob story.

Newcastle are a target now for everyone to have a pop at, you need to get used to it. 

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

I mean he probably has never had a top 8 budget, so I don't think I would expect much more. My view is like many mid/lower premiership managers he has had a mixed career. There have been many worse premiership managers, but at the same time I would rather some new faces get on the merry go round.

Well unless Man United decide to replace Ole with Bruce (knowing their embrace of nostalgia for the 90s I don't think it can be entirely ruled out) it'll be something that stays I guess.

I'm aware there's a trend where a lot of big clubs have ignored English managers for most of the Premier League era. This imo is behind my earlier musing that Bruce's decision to reject Newcastle in 2004 was the wrong one, as he would've joined at a time where they were still getting top 6 finishes rather than arriving in 2019 when that ship had sailed. But even then I feel like there's been better English managers even in the PL era and Arteta escalated things quite a bit.

It is what it is though.

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, thetime said:

Newcastle are a target now for everyone to have a pop at, you need to get used to it. 

Yeah I'm guessing this will be a consistent trend going forward. Even moreso if this thing actually works as intended and Newcastle begin challenging for trophies.

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, charlierc said:

But even then I feel like there's been better English managers even in the PL era and Arteta escalated things quite a bit.

It is what it is though.

The thing is (almost) nobody is claiming he has been one of the best English managers of the PL era. I think most would consider him overall a pretty middling manager if you were to list every English manager at that level. In my head I think I would probably rank him in the middle, however suspect if I saw a list of many people I had forgotten, he would probably be top half.

Out of interest is there a link to Arteta making these comments. I always am interested to see the context, rather than an isolated quote. However either Google search or my tired brain is not finding it today. 

[TheGayTent]

Another pleasant evening, topped off with Chesters coming on 

[charlierc]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is (almost) nobody is claiming he has been one of the best English managers of the PL era. I think most would consider him overall a pretty middling manager if you were to list every English manager at that level. In my head I think I would probably rank him in the middle, however suspect if I saw a list of many people I had forgotten, he would probably be top half.

Out of interest is there a link to Arteta making these comments. I always am interested to see the context, rather than an isolated quote. However either Google search or my tired brain is not finding it today. 

It's in the first 20 seconds of this clip on Sky Sports' YouTube. Now it could well be the remark has been slightly taken out of context, but it does feel too easy to jump on this point and be confused.

I am not disputing Arteta's key point that some people can be way too abusive towards managers and take things too far with hyper-personal insults. They do and it can be toned down a peg or two. I'm not even saying Bruce's entire career is a failure, which I get the feeling some Newcastle fans have been doing - there will be other clubs who look on him more favourably for better spells with them, which is fair enough. But it's that point of heavy praise after 2+ years that haven't really been fun that did leave me pondering aloud what I'm missing for him to say that.

I mean, AFAIK, his highest position as a Premier League manager was 9th or 10th. I know some other people do go around their entire career not getting that high, but it's still kinda unremarkable.

[WS_Jack_III]

2 hours ago, thetime said:

Newcastle are a target now for everyone to have a pop at, you need to get used to it. 

Been that way a while to be honest.

[WS_Jack_III]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is (almost) nobody is claiming he has been one of the best English managers of the PL era. I think most would consider him overall a pretty middling manager if you were to list every English manager at that level. In my head I think I would probably rank him in the middle, however suspect if I saw a list of many people I had forgotten, he would probably be top half.

Out of interest is there a link to Arteta making these comments. I always am interested to see the context, rather than an isolated quote. However either Google search or my tired brain is not finding it today. 

 

And here is some other managers getting in on the circle jerk

 

 

[thetime]

Jose Mourinho 🤣

[pink_triangle]

9 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

 

And here is some other managers getting in on the circle jerk

 

 

That interviews doesn't really give context. What was the question. Where is the follow up asking him to explain his reasoning. Is anything lost in translation using his second challenge. 

In all honesty I don't think it matters. Managers come up with a load of guff on a variety of topics every week in press conferences. I think they are pretty much best ignored.

[pink_triangle]

10 hours ago, charlierc said:

 

I mean, AFAIK, his highest position as a Premier League manager was 9th or 10th. I know some other people do go around their entire career not getting that high, but it's still kinda unremarkable.

Where would you expect him to finish? He probably has never had a budget better than that. Comparing on league positions lacks context. 9th is s big success for some teams and huge failures for others.

[WS_Jack_III]

32 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

That interviews doesn't really give context. What was the question. Where is the follow up asking him to explain his reasoning. Is anything lost in translation using his second challenge. 

In all honesty I don't think it matters. Managers come up with a load of guff on a variety of topics every week in press conferences. I think they are pretty much best ignored.

That's all I can give you, I assume he was asked "what did you make of Steve Bruce leaving his post at Newcastle and the statement he put out?"

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, WS_Jack_III said:

That's all I can give you, I assume he was asked "what did you make of Steve Bruce leaving his post at Newcastle and the statement he put out?"

Without any kind of follow up, it's just another meaningless see statement that managers make every week on press conferences and people just ignore. It's not some kind of media conspiracy against Newcastle fans.

[WS_Jack_III]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

Without any kind of follow up, it's just another meaningless see statement that managers make every week on press conferences and people just ignore. It's not some kind of media conspiracy against Newcastle fans.

There's a definite Bruce love in going on though and it's really, really weird. Bloke was sacked for being crap, that's standard. Yet to see evidence of this "abuse," yes I'm sure there is some on social media because there always is (doesn't make it right) but it's being blown way out of proportion.

[kaosmark2]

15 hours ago, thetime said:

Newcastle are a target now for everyone to have a pop at, you need to get used to it. 

There has been a media narrative for a few years of Newcastle fans being entitled and over-expectant. I don't know if it's worse than other clubs got or just felt like it, but it does seem like we've been judged based upon talk-show phone-ins and twitter idiots who don't actually represent the typical fan's attitude.

Again, with the caveat of that's probably a sentiment fans of any club feel, I don't imagine Everton fans feel represented by the "we know where you live" anti-Benitez twats. It's just it's felt like the media narrative excessively plays into the idea of them as typical fans, instead of the loudmouthed exception more.

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

There's a definite Bruce love in going on though and it's really, really weird. Bloke was sacked for being crap, that's standard. Yet to see evidence of this "abuse," yes I'm sure there is some on social media because there always is (doesn't make it right) but it's being blown way out of proportion.

Well these managers meet him in person, maybe he is just a very nice bloke. I can't remember hearing much negative things about him, so maybe those who have met him like him. In a world where some people  are horrible to people just because they are female, gay or a journalist. Maybe showing some love for decency isn't a terrible thing.

However there is also an element of managers being asked for a comment. As always they will tend to say the easiest and least controversial thing.

Edited October 22, 2021 by pink_triangle

[WS_Jack_III]

What annoys me though is his record isn't being mentioned and it's just "he was treated poorly" how exactly was he treated poorly? Yes we didn't want him, we absolutely didn't want him to fail (why would you want your team to lose?) 

 

Bruce out chants and a very few (and typical) nasty social media posts and it's all "those horrible Geordies"

 

He hasn't won a game this season, he needed to be sacked, end of. People saying it's a shame he's considering retiring, have him at your club then and see how it goes. He's done at the top level and if we're all being honest, he has been for over a decade.

Edited October 22, 2021 by WS_Jack_III

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

What annoys me though is his record isn't being mentioned and it's just "he was treated poorly" how exactly was he treated poorly? Yes we didn't want him, we absolutely didn't want him to fail (why would you want your team to lose?) 

 

The thing is you are not going to get a premiership manager disect the pros and cons of sacking him in a press conference, what would be in it for them?

However this isn't some kind of media conspiracy, it's just the way managers have always acted in press conferences. If you get asked the question what you think about Bruce being sacked you are just going to give the blandest, least controversial answer.

My view is these press conferences can be ignored and I would never watch one. You dont have a clue if answer reflects the managers true opinion or not. Most only do them because they are contractually obliged. Listening to the radio on the way back they were asking OGS and klopp today who they think is the best Ronaldo or Salah, I mean what is the point.

[charlierc]

10 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Where would you expect him to finish? He probably has never had a budget better than that. Comparing on league positions lacks context. 9th is s big success for some teams and huge failures for others.

Was kinda curious myself so I thought I'd look. Turns out his best finishes were 10th (Birmingham in 2003/04 and Sunderland in 2010/11, the second of which I thought was 9th, not 10th). Both were similar - would've been seen as a good finish pre-season for likely budget and club reputation, but both teams were in the top 6 with over half the season gone, then their form duly fell off a cliff and the Euro dreams bit the dust. But it can happen - Pardew stuck the landing well to get 5th in 2011/12, then blew it in 2013/14 after Yohan Cabaye was sold and not replaced in January, and the squad seemed to down tools.

I'm aware Arteta's line was a bit of a throwaway remark that could just be something for meme makers to chortle at, and because I support the club who just told Bruce to go away, I ended up analysing it to extremes as on it's own merits as it kinda rubbed me up the wrong way. I don't have an issue with the idea Bruce was more popular with other football managers due to being a person they got on with, whereas Newcastle fans didn't really see eye to eye. That kind of thing can happen. Plus managers tend to look out for one another. I don't recall ever reading of a football manager in a press conference going "Good riddance to that moron, glad he's gone". Would be fairly newsworthy if they did tbf.

But it is what it is. He's gone now, as can happen if you're a manager on the back of a poor run stretching back nearly a year. Guess we'll see who the new recruit is in time... very much in time, given Graeme Jones has been told he'll be in charge for Chelsea next week.

[charlierc]

14 hours ago, thetime said:

Jose Mourinho 🤣

I mean he's had some miserable moments in the last decade or so but that mauling in Norway in the Conference League... Jesus Christ.

[thetime]

14 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I mean he's had some miserable moments in the last decade or so but that mauling in Norway in the Conference League... Jesus Christ.

Your next manager