Football 2021/2022

[thetime]

8 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

He understood that we weren't content with the shite Ashley put us through. We don't expect to be winning everything but we also don't expect to be losing.

But took Ashley's money anyway, I would of thought Newcastle were not that naive.

[WS_Jack_III]

54 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

https://www.themag.co.uk/2021/10/this-appalling-treatment-of-newcastle-united-fans/

Its horrific that they even mention Hillsborough when talking about treatment of Newcastle fans, they should really take this down.

Been edited now.

[WS_Jack_III]

53 minutes ago, thetime said:

But took Ashley's money anyway, I would of thought Newcastle were not that naive.

And did a wonderful job.

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Been edited now.

The fact he even thought (before being pressured to take down) it was a valid comparison is beyond me.

[WS_Jack_III]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

The fact he even thought (before being pressured to take down) it was a valid comparison is beyond me.

What did it say like?

[pink_triangle]

1 minute ago, WS_Jack_III said:

What did it say like?

It said something along the lines of not since Hillsborough have fans had to put up with a campaign against them from the media. I can't remember exact wording.

[thetime]

11 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

And did a wonderful job.

Who got the most points in the premier league for newcastle, bruce or rafa?

[WS_Jack_III]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It said something along the lines of not since Hillsborough have fans had to put up with a campaign against them from the media. I can't remember exact wording.

Nufc twitter condemning it.

 

5 minutes ago, thetime said:

Who got the most points in the premier league for newcastle, bruce or rafa?

Who stabilised the club in the PL and who inherited that squad, spent over 100m and moved them nowhere?

[pink_triangle]

Looking at those managerial statistics from earlier I think we need to re-evaluate the career of Brian Clough. I think of all the managers who have managed 1400 games and managed in the the premiership he is second worst.

[WS_Jack_III]

Also I believe the answer is actually Rafa got more 😉

[WS_Jack_III]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Looking at those managerial statistics from earlier I think we need to re-evaluate the career of Brian Clough. I think of all the managers who have managed 1400 games and managed in the the premiership he is second worst.

In a silly mood I see.

[thetime]

14 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Who stabilised the club in the PL and who inherited that squad, spent over 100m and moved them nowhere?

That was not the question.

[pink_triangle]

3 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

In a silly mood I see.

As a scientist silly interpretation of statistics is something that should always be called out and is something football fans and politicians are particularly guilty of. If 1000 games is sensible, why is 1400 not. Where is the line?

[WS_Jack_III]

5 minutes ago, thetime said:

That was not the question.

I believe the answer is Rafa.

 

2 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

As a scientist silly interpretation of statistics is something that should always be called out and is something football fans and politicians are particularly guilty of. If 1000 games is sensible, why is 1400 not. Where is the line?

I dropped it down and further reiterated my point but you didn't like it because it didn't fit your narrative.

[thetime]

3 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

I believe the answer is Rafa.

 

Both got 45 I think.

[pink_triangle]

18 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

I believe the answer is Rafa.

 

I dropped it down and further reiterated my point but you didn't like it because it didn't fit your narrative.

You actually dropped it to a criteria that decreased the amount of people who met the criteria, not increased it!

Edit my mistake I miscounted and I think that both criteria are pretty much equal in terms of the amount of managers who meet them. Still is definitely not a significant widening so I think point stands. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by pink_triangle

[pink_triangle]

If you were to ask me what would be a sensible qualifying criteria in terms of games managed. I would say one that covers 50 % of premiership managers rather than 5-10%. Although you could argue that this would still end up excluding a lot of the worst who wouldn't get to this level.

[charlierc]

4 hours ago, lost said:

I'd drive him there myself. I could take the negative football but if he can't organise a defence what actually does he do?

I saw it as 2-1 to Everton with about 15 to go and was thinking "They'll probably see it out". Boy was I wrong. I mean it was unexpected enough that Chelsea put 7 past Norwich (maybe not that unexpected of the two) but this defensive collapse is nuts. The defending for the 4th goal was particularly hopeless.

[WS_Jack_III]

27 minutes ago, thetime said:

Both got 45 I think.

Eh 😂

f*ck me you lot are terrible at this. Bruce and Rafa only got 45 points across their two seasons and few games in the PL at Newcastle???

Did you mean to say who got the biggest points haul in one season? 

Edited October 23, 2021 by WS_Jack_III

[charlierc]

19 minutes ago, thetime said:

Both got 45 I think.

I'm aware that they weren't a million miles apart. Discounting our Championship stay, if there's any slight difference on PL numbers, its probably that Benitez won 3/4 games in his spell at the end of 2015/16 while Bruce didn't win any in a near-equivalent number this campaign, though it is possible this could be cancelled out by two long winless runs in Benitez's pair of full seasons. I don't think Bruce helped himself win over unhappy Newcastle fans by sarcastically referring to "Mighty Rafa" when comparisons were brought up in press conferences, which happened more than once (happened with Eddie Howe as well once).

[thetime]

5 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

 

Did you mean to say who got the biggest points haul in one season? 

yes

[WS_Jack_III]

3 minutes ago, thetime said:

yes

Correct then but I'm gonna twist like everyone else and say that every season has it's own variables. It's quite clear who the better manager is, ridiculous that people even try to argue against it.

[charlierc]

5 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I do think Bruce was successful at Birmingham. I also don't think he's done anything meaningful since then. He's had a few jobs where he's been neutral, and several where he's been bad. 10-15 years too long in management, and particularly bad at Newcastle.

The annoyance is that the media are following his own narrative about being hard done by. Most of the disdain from Newcastle fans he brought upon himself, and everyone (including him) knows that Ashley put a high pay off because it wasn't going to be Ashley paying him off to leave. He's earned £10m in 3 years for doing a shit job.

I would argue he did well overall at Hull, given he got them promoted and straight back into the PL after relegation in 2015, and especially moreso given some of Hull's self-destructive tendencies under their unpopular owners since. I wasn't sure how liked Bruce is by Hull fans given he defended their owner's attempts to rebrand them Hull Tigers, although interestingly there's word a few chanted for him to come back during a defeat by Luton earlier today. He must've done something right at Sheffield Wednesday as I gather their fans were pretty unhappy with Newcastle for approaching him and even more annoyed with him for ditching them for SJP.

I do kinda agree with the latter point. Some very much take it too far - the original version of that article from the Mag highlighted did seem to cross the line of good taste - but he was given an absurdly generous contract, got lucky last season that Fulham gave up after the March international break, failed to make the most of his reprieve this season, and got thrown overboard when it seems likely the board may've given him a chance to show he deserved to spend the wealth. That exit interview has certainly been good at setting the terms of the discussion in a way I don't think has been seen with many other sackings.

[kaosmark2]

3 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I would argue he did well overall at Hull, given he got them promoted and straight back into the PL after relegation in 2015, and especially moreso given some of Hull's self-destructive tendencies under their unpopular owners since. I wasn't sure how liked Bruce is by Hull fans given he defended their owner's attempts to rebrand them Hull Tigers, although interestingly there's word a few chanted for him to come back during a defeat by Luton earlier today. He must've done something right at Sheffield Wednesday as I gather their fans were pretty unhappy with Newcastle for approaching him and even more annoyed with him for ditching them for SJP.

I do kinda agree with the latter point. Some very much take it too far - the original version of that article from the Mag highlighted did seem to cross the line of good taste - but he was given an absurdly generous contract, got lucky last season that Fulham gave up after the March international break, failed to make the most of his reprieve this season, and got thrown overboard when it seems likely the board may've given him a chance to show he deserved to spend the wealth. That exit interview has certainly been good at setting the terms of the discussion in a way I don't think has been seen with many other sackings.

Hull spent a lot of money for the time. Whether it was neutral or somewhat good is a bit irrelevant to now though, he's not had a positive impact at a club for 10 years.

There are plenty of moronic Newcastle fans, and like with most clubs they're generally the loudest. I get how the narrative can be fed into, it's just how football media operate, but things like asking Arteta is completely meaningless and just perpetuates people listening to Bruce's moaning. He moaned about the fans after 2 games, he kept having digs at the previous manager, had further digs at the fans, while never accepting responsibility himself or criticising the owner.

[pink_triangle]

20 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Correct then but I'm gonna twist like everyone else and say that every season has it's own variables. It's quite clear who the better manager is, ridiculous that people even try to argue against it.

I don't think many are arguing who was the better manager. I think if you polled premiership fans who they would have between Benitez and Bruce most would choose the former by a significant margin. 

I think the argument is more that the stats dont really reflect one being amazing and the other terrible. I think an argument can be made to support that viewpoint, however as I have said consistently today I am very dubious how football fans use statistics.