Róisín Murphy

[zahidf]

12 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I really don’t think she is being transphobic, I’m sorry. 
I was on the board of governors at my kids primary school, and I saw two kids go to the Tavistock. One was a friends child who came from a very very troubled background. There were so many reasons why confusion might occur. Don’t forget the gender identity clinic has been shut down as it was so unprofessional. There really are adults with their own personal agendas and interests who were really conducting experiments behind closed doors. There really are kids who now regret decision they made and cannot be reversed. 
I know there are kids for whom this is appropriate. But I believe you will also find that in many cases there is minimal intervention before medication and it really is wise to look at it and structure it properly. 
you can’t get counselling for kids for many issues anyway and there may well be underlying issues unaddressed. 

Tavistock is closing in March 2024 and being replaced by two hubs in the North and South. It struggled to cope with the demand and there is a waiting list of around 7500 children with gender dysphoria related issued

Sorry but the NHS guidelines calls for a lot of intervention before medication is involved. Your not a medical professional , so its not really down to you to diagnose them

 

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

And it doesn’t take years of support before puberty blockers in the uk. Their effects can be serious and irreversible. It’s not a TikTok expert debate! They come far too easily when kids feelings may well change. That’s not disrespectful, it’s just a fact of growing up. The beauty of youth and and free exploration of ideas.  

The regret rate was 1% last time studies were done in 2021. thats less than most surgeries!

There are a few of course who wish they hadnt done it, but its not common at all

[acidstorm523]

16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Tavistock is closing in March 2024 and being replaced by two hubs in the North and South. It struggled to cope with the demand and there is a waiting list of around 7500 children with gender dysphoria related issued

Sorry but the NHS guidelines calls for a lot of intervention before medication is involved. Your not a medical professional , so its not really down to you to diagnose them

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/19/a-contentious-place-the-inside-story-of-tavistocks-nhs-gender-identity-clinic?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 

im not diagnosing anyone, but I am a parent, a qualified emotional counsellor , and a school governor ( past). It is clear that gender dysphoria has taken centre stage and other explanations are not being addressed. A lot of this is forced through by angry young people who push for rights. I know that as an angry teenager myself , what I thought then is not the be all and end all and there isn’t a one solution fix. All young people want to change the world, and rightly so, but to fight blindly for the right to damage their precious bodies might not be the best way until we know more. 
 

There hasn’t been a lot of time to asses regrets or reversals as everything is being pushed through so quickly. I live in Brighton and would be astounded if every kid expressing their gender confusion at school at the moment was really born in the wrong body. I wish we could teach people to love themselves, express themselves in the beautiful healthy body they have. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523
Replying to second post

[Wooderson]

34 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Does that make the statement 'universal'? If so, where lies your definition of democracy?

Really not having a pop. You can believe that or misbelieve - that's up to you.

Btw - 'coulchie' I know is an ouch word. As is 'Jackeen'.

 

As an aside, I one happened o find myself in Dublin, off my trolley, but asking all passers by if they had any gear to sell (this was many moons ago). In the end I flagged a taxi to take me to north Dublin, as I knew it to be the home of the 'underbelly', so to speak. Guess what? The taxi driver refused me. No matter what money I proffered he said he wouldn't. When I eventually asked why, he said it was 'because they'll kill you, and I don't want that on my conscience'. 

 

Course not. My opinion is just that, same as anyone elses. But there is a deep seated issue within these irish "do gooders" that is rooted in a f**ked up upbringing. This is national stain to which majority of us have to acknowledge if not deal.

He started it with the Dublin distinction.

😄

[Skip997]

9 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I live in Brighton and would be astounded if every kid expressing their gender confusion at school at the moment was really born in the wrong body.

Again spot on.

Someone said to me recently that this is the current teen rebellion. "You can't tell me what gender I am"

[JayDiesel]

A (hyopthetical, admittedly) comparison that I find interesting in this whole debate of absolutism, is how views would/wouldn't be skewered if Roisin's PoV was the other way around.

If she'd spent her entire career as a full on TERF, and then made a comment along the lines of 'Actually, I endorse the use of Gender Blockers, I just thoroughly disagree with every other facet of LGBT culture and the Trans way of life', she wouldn't suddenly be heralded as a new vocal activist for Trans rights. People would assess her previous views, roles and behaviour and think 'no, still a TERF'. 

Why is it so drastically different the other way around? If you advocate for the LGBT community at large, but then take against a single, solo, individual factor that speaks for them, you're seen as a radical anti-trans martyr. People have to learn, hopefully sooner rather than later, that very few things are dealt with in absolutes. The Trans community does seem to have this level of fervrent discourse more regularly than others, and I respect that it must be a pretty awful war to wage everyday of your life, but recognising who is on your side makes things considerably easier than castigating potential allies for a single disagreed upon view.

Edited September 15, 2023 by JayDiesel

[acidstorm523]

3 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Again spot on.

Someone said to me recently that this is the current teen rebellion. "You can't tell me what gender I am"

Remember the world without social media.. you have to wonder just how many kids would feel this way without the question being endlessly pushed. 

[acidstorm523]

12 minutes ago, JayDiesel said:

A (hyopthetical, admittedly) comparison that I find interesting in this whole debate of absolutism, is how views would/wouldn't be skewered if Roisin's PoV was the other way around.

If she'd spent her entire career as a full on TERF, and then made a comment along the lines of 'Actually, I endorse the use of Gender Blockers, I just thoroughly disagree with every other facet of LGBT culture and the Trans way of life', she wouldn't suddenly be heralded as a new vocal activist for Trans rights. People would assess her previous views, roles and behaviour and think 'no, still a TERF'. 

Why is it so drastically different the other way around? If you advocate for the LGBT community at large, but then take against a single, solo, individual factor that speaks for them, you're seen as a radical anti-trans martyr. People have to learn, hopefully sooner rather than later, that very few things are dealt with in absolutes. The Trans community does seem to have this level of fervrent discourse more regularly than others, and I respect that it must be a pretty awful war to wage everyday of your life, but recognising who is on your side makes things considerably easier than castigating potential allies for a single disagreed upon view.

Yes to this. When every word is jumped on it makes life very difficult for everyone. It’s like people are constantly looking to be wronged. 
Actually in the world I grew up in there seemed to be a lot more natural acceptance and no need to wage war every day! 
Certainly room for education and debate, but no need for this hatred and divisiveness. Perhaps this is the scourge of social media in essence. 
I was on Reddit the other day and someone complaining about a loud camp at Burning Man.  In the past you might have gone home and had a moan. This turned in to all out war and trying to get the people banned etc. 

Everyone is so angry. Its sad, and boring 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

17 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

 But there is a deep seated issue within these irish "do gooders" that is rooted in a f**ked up upbringing. This is national stain to which majority of us have to acknowledge if not deal.

I fully understand (or, at least I think I do). My mother and father looked down on the members of Opus Dei. They simply were not pious enough - or hypocritical, for that matter. 

 

20 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

 

He started it with the Dublin distinction.

 

Apologies - I hadn't observed that. That said ' culchie'!?  People (on here) would be all over you like a rash, for that one. 

[gigpusher]

12 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

Actually in the world I grew up in there seemed to be a lot more natural acceptance and no need to wage war every day! 
Certainly room for education and debate, but no need for this hatred and divisiveness. Perhaps this is the scourge of social media in essence. 
 

Everyone is so angry. Its sad, and boring 

I think this is the point I was making. I hope people don't treat everyone they meet in real life the way they do celebrities online because honestly I think I probably disagree with every person I meet on at least one issue. It doesn't mean I can't keep liking and supporting them on other issues and if it's an issue important to me I probably have discussions with them to try and change their mind or at least understand their pov.

Of course some things are so big an issue that it can be hard to get past and maybe Roisin Murphy is an out and out transphobe but I just don't know. From the very small snippet we saw (of which there was no context as to what she was even replying to) I find the rush to judgement a bit frightening.

I also think it's very hard when people can read words we write so differently so for example I read Roisin's take that she didn't make music for the LGBT community not as her saying it's not for you but rather that she makes the music she feels herself that she wants to make rather than cynically trying to cash in on the pink pound and if the LGBT community have taken it to their hearts great but that she's not in a studio thinking 'will the gays like this enough?' when she's creating something.

I worry that the way we conduct social media discourse creates extremism because we are all basically animals and when animals are under attack or feel threatened then as our dog trainer once said to me you are no longer in a learning space. I definitely think in years to come there will be mental health conditions diagnosed that are a direct consequence of social media. 

 

[gigpusher]

38 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Again spot on.

Someone said to me recently that this is the current teen rebellion. "You can't tell me what gender I am"

And from my reading on the subject it seems I am a post-genderist so I actually would be very happy in a world where gender simply wasn't a thing and we were all human. Some humans could wear dresses and make up and others lumberjack shirts and DM's and the only thing governing that choice would be how they feel and not societies expectations or anything else.

[Isaact]

1 hour ago, acidstorm523 said:

I know there are kids for whom this is appropriate. But I believe you will also find that in many cases there is minimal intervention before medication and it really is wise to look at it and structure it properly.

As a counter balance to this, the current NHS waiting list to be seen by a gender clinic for your first appointment is five years.

Before being proscribed puberty blockers, a child is assessed by all of:

• clinical psychologist
• child psychotherapist
• child and adolescent psychiatrist
• family therapist
• social worker

This team will carry out an assessment over 3 to 6 appointments over a period of several months. As a result of this intervention (post waiting list and post assessment by multiple medical professionals from various disciplines), a child might be proscribed puberty blockers.

Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Isaact

[balti-pie]

2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

 

I worry that the way we conduct social media discourse creates extremism because we are all basically animals and when animals are under attack or feel threatened then as our dog trainer once said to me you are no longer in a learning space. I definitely think in years to come there will be mental health conditions diagnosed that are a direct consequence of social media. 

 

I think there's far too much analysis onto the written word, and that's pretty much because of the proliferation of social media. In verbal conversation there's far more nuance and subtlety, and that's lost with the written word - which can be read, re-read and slanted, and specific word choices can be forensically dissected. 

I think the polarisation of basically every issue is as a direct result of social media and everyone being put on one side or another. The brevity of twitter's 140 characters (i mean its not any more, but you know what i mean) leads to such a lack of subtlety, and instead you get good guys agreeing (thats exactly right!) or bad guys disagreeing (you're a dreadful c**t and should have been drowned at birth!) and its just all entrenched positions, there's no room for 'oh yeah mate, you've got a point there'. I blame the lack of sitting down and having a chat with people, instead of endlessly tweeting. 

 

In a way its kind of ironic that phones were invented as a way of ensuring you can talk to people wherever they are, and instead its led to people being in their own individual silo, sending their thoughts out into the ether instead of, you know, actually bloody talking. 

[acidstorm523]

3 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

I think this is the point I was making. I hope people don't treat everyone they meet in real life the way they do celebrities online because honestly I think I probably disagree with every person I meet on at least one issue. It doesn't mean I can't keep liking and supporting them on other issues and if it's an issue important to me I probably have discussions with them to try and change their mind or at least understand their pov.

Of course some things are so big an issue that it can be hard to get past and maybe Roisin Murphy is an out and out transphobe but I just don't know. From the very small snippet we saw (of which there was no context as to what she was even replying to) I find the rush to judgement a bit frightening.

I also think it's very hard when people can read words we write so differently so for example I read Roisin's take that she didn't make music for the LGBT community not as her saying it's not for you but rather that she makes the music she feels herself that she wants to make rather than cynically trying to cash in on the pink pound and if the LGBT community have taken it to their hearts great but that she's not in a studio thinking 'will the gays like this enough?' when she's creating something.

I worry that the way we conduct social media discourse creates extremism because we are all basically animals and when animals are under attack or feel threatened then as our dog trainer once said to me you are no longer in a learning space. I definitely think in years to come there will be mental health conditions diagnosed that are a direct consequence of social media. 

 

Very true. 
social media just polarises debate as people tend to write in sound bites rather than and long form discussion. 
The mental health side is frankly terrifying as SM allows groups to come together much more easily and it becomes an echo chamber very easily. You can already see it with the proliferation of self harm , eating disorders , identity problems and even suicide. Kids want to fit in as they always have , but they can access far more extreme content very easily away from parental care. This just didn’t happen in the same way just a decade ago. 

[moogdroog]

1 minute ago, Isaact said:

As a counter balance to this, the current NHS waiting list to be seen by a gender clinic for your first appointment is five years.

Before being proscribed puberty blockers, a child is assessed by all of:

• clinical psychologist
• child psychotherapist
• child and adolescent psychiatrist
• family therapist
• social worker

This team will carry out an assessment over 3 to 6 appointments over a period of several months. As a result of this intervention (post waiting list and post assessment by multiple medical professionals from various disciplines), a child might be proscribed puberty blockers.

Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

I've just finished reading Time to Think by Hannah Barnes (a BBC Newsnight journalist) which is all about the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock. The above is definitely *not* happening - there has been huge failures in practice, safeguarding and governance.

I recommend the book as a thorough, heat-free examination of what's led to concerns and the forthcoming closure of the service.

[acidstorm523]

7 minutes ago, Isaact said:

As a counter balance to this, the current NHS waiting list to be seen by a gender clinic for your first appointment is five years.

Before being proscribed puberty blockers, a child is assessed by all of:

• clinical psychologist
• child psychotherapist
• child and adolescent psychiatrist
• family therapist
• social worker

This team will carry out an assessment over 3 to 6 appointments over a period of several months. As a result of this intervention (post waiting list and post assessment by multiple medical professionals from various disciplines), a child might be proscribed puberty blockers.

Let's stick to the facts, shall we?

That is good to know, because it certainly was not the case when I was working with school. The other “fact” is that these assessments are carried out by therapeutic professionals, and we still have kids who may be damaged for life through medical treatments. We just don’t know the longer term consequences and everyone is afraid to say anything for fear of getting shot down. 
 

strangely in this case, most kids must surely be into puberty by the time they are prescribed ? 

[acidstorm523]

5 minutes ago, moogdroog said:

I've just finished reading Time to Think by Hannah Barnes (a BBC Newsnight journalist) which is all about the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock. The above is definitely *not* happening - there has been huge failures in practice, safeguarding and governance.

I recommend the book as a thorough, heat-free examination of what's led to concerns and the forthcoming closure of the service.

Exactly. This is the frightening truth. 
People are so obsessed with fighting for the right to damage healthy bodies, they have lost sight of learning to express themselves without a medical procedure. There are adults whose major interest is seeing what happens to these kids and playing god. You can be anything you want to be and for most people that doesn’t require changing their physical body. 

[Isaact]

1 minute ago, acidstorm523 said:

Exactly. This is the frightening truth. 
People are so obsessed with fighting for the right to damage healthy bodies, they have lost sight of learning to express themselves without a medical procedure. There are adults whose major interest is seeing what happens to these kids and playing god. You can be anything you want to be and for most people that doesn’t require changing their physical body. 

What do you think about adults who want to transition?

[acidstorm523]

Just now, Isaact said:

What do you think about adults who want to transition?

I fully support them as mature adults. I have good friends who have done so. 

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, JayDiesel said:

A (hyopthetical, admittedly) comparison that I find interesting in this whole debate of absolutism, is how views would/wouldn't be skewered if Roisin's PoV was the other way around.

If she'd spent her entire career as a full on TERF, and then made a comment along the lines of 'Actually, I endorse the use of Gender Blockers, I just thoroughly disagree with every other facet of LGBT culture and the Trans way of life', she wouldn't suddenly be heralded as a new vocal activist for Trans rights. People would assess her previous views, roles and behaviour and think 'no, still a TERF'. 

Why is it so drastically different the other way around? If you advocate for the LGBT community at large, but then take against a single, solo, individual factor that speaks for them, you're seen as a radical anti-trans martyr. People have to learn, hopefully sooner rather than later, that very few things are dealt with in absolutes. The Trans community does seem to have this level of fervrent discourse more regularly than others, and I respect that it must be a pretty awful war to wage everyday of your life, but recognising who is on your side makes things considerably easier than castigating potential allies for a single disagreed upon view.

except she in her statement in response very clearly didnt support the trans community. 

[zahidf]

14 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

Exactly. This is the frightening truth. 
People are so obsessed with fighting for the right to damage healthy bodies, they have lost sight of learning to express themselves without a medical procedure. There are adults whose major interest is seeing what happens to these kids and playing god. You can be anything you want to be and for most people that doesn’t require changing their physical body. 

Come on. 

[zahidf]

20 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

That is good to know, because it certainly was not the case when I was working with school. The other “fact” is that these assessments are carried out by therapeutic professionals, and we still have kids who may be damaged for life through medical treatments. We just don’t know the longer term consequences and everyone is afraid to say anything for fear of getting shot down. 
 

strangely in this case, most kids must surely be into puberty by the time they are prescribed ? 

Um, what? the NHS wouldnt allow them to be used unless they were tested. Or are we getting into BIG PHARMA CANt be trUSTEd territory?

Yes, most kids are older when they are prescribed. 

 

[collectivisedfarming]

Lot of misinformation in this thread.

There is no such thing as "gender blockers". Puberty blockers have the risk profile of plenty of other drugs and much less than some. They are not a new thing and neither are they exclusively used in gender affirming healthcare, for example they can be used to treat early onset puberty. 

The social contagion argument, or the kids are all doing it because of tiktok is highly spurious and was largely based on the 2018 Littman paper (which every terf cites but precisely zero have read) that contains various methodological errors and generally bad science. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/3/e2022056567/188709/Sex-Assigned-at-Birth-Ratio-Among-Transgender-and

There were trans people before social media. I know two trans women in their 60s who transitioned before Facebook and even widespread internet use. One is looking to leave the UK because of the hostility they face here. What is for some a "debate" is for others something much more profound and has far more, often negative, implications. 

Detransitioners represent a tiny fraction of an already tiny minority. They deserve respect and to be part of the conversation but amplifying their voices above or regarding them as having equivalent weight to those of trans people in this conversation is perverse and usually driven by an agenda. 

The belief that to be trans you need to be "born in the wrong body" or to believe that you are, is not as widely held as cis people tend to believe, and can be viewed as a fairly reductive way of approaching gender incongruence. 

Before demanding a "debate" why not listen to trans people first and then engage in a spirit of learning rather than to make a point? 

[moogdroog]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Um, what? the NHS wouldnt allow them to be used unless they were tested. Or are we getting into BIG PHARMA CANt be trUSTEd territory?

Yes, most kids are older when they are prescribed. 

 

The NHS have now stopped their use, because the evidence base is so very poor.

They were being used *off label* and were developed for use in end-stage prostate cancer. They've also been used to chemically castrate sex offenders, in precocious puberty and in some places, for endometriosis.

[acidstorm523]

2 minutes ago, collectivisedfarming said:

Lot of misinformation in this thread.

There is no such thing as "gender blockers". Puberty blockers have the risk profile of plenty of other drugs and much less than some. They are not a new thing and neither are they exclusively used in gender affirming healthcare, for example they can be used to treat early onset puberty. 

The social contagion argument, or the kids are all doing it because of tiktok is highly spurious and was largely based on the 2018 Littman paper (which every terf cites but precisely zero have read) that contains various methodological errors and generally bad science. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/3/e2022056567/188709/Sex-Assigned-at-Birth-Ratio-Among-Transgender-and

There were trans people before social media. I know two trans women in their 60s who transitioned before Facebook and even widespread internet use. One is looking to leave the UK because of the hostility they face here. What is for some a "debate" is for others something much more profound and has far more, often negative, implications. 

Detransitioners represent a tiny fraction of an already tiny minority. They deserve respect and to be part of the conversation but amplifying their voices above or regarding them as having equivalent weight to those of trans people in this conversation is perverse and usually driven by an agenda. 

The belief that to be trans you need to be "born in the wrong body" or to believe that you are, is not as widely held as cis people tend to believe, and can be viewed as a fairly reductive way of approaching gender incongruence. 

Before demanding a "debate" why not listen to trans people first and then engage in a spirit of learning rather than to make a point? 

I am 58 years old, grew up in gay London, and know a few people of my age and older who transitioned. I have no issue with that. A FEW people. 
But living in brighton and working with schools, the number of kids with dysphoria has exploded and you cannot say that is nothing to do with social media. 
It’s an extremely complicated situation that has been created now. 
the debate should be to help kids find ways of dealing with feelings without jumping to extreme solutions to difficulties that may pass naturally. 
I’m really tired of anger being the driving factor from some communities. Tired of being called a cis woman as of that does not allow me a voice

we are all people. We should love and be happy and encourage our children to find their way before jumping to conclusions through things they see around them. To deny that this is not influenced by social media is not going to help anything and is not realistic.