Róisín Murphy

[acidstorm523]

9 minutes ago, moogdroog said:

The NHS have now stopped their use, because the evidence base is so very poor.

They were being used *off label* and were developed for use in end-stage prostate cancer. They've also been used to chemically castrate sex offenders, in precocious puberty and in some places, for endometriosis.

I find it very difficult that people ignore the fact that we just don’t have the long term evidence. That we might be damaging the bodies of young people. 
why is it more important to push an ideology than step back and accept that it might just not be all good? 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523

[collectivisedfarming]

3 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I am 58 years old, grew up in gay London, and know a few people of my age and older who transitioned. I have no issue with that. A FEW people. 
But living in brighton and working with schools, the number of kids with dysphoria has exploded and you cannot say that is nothing to do with social media. 
It’s an extremely complicated situation that has been created now. 
the debate should be to help kids find ways of dealing with feelings without jumping to extreme solutions to difficulties that may pass naturally. 
I’m really tired of anger being the driving factor from some communities. Tired of being called a cis woman as of that does not allow me a voice

we are all people. We should love and be happy and encourage our children to find their way before jumping to conclusions through things they see around them. To deny that this is not influenced by social media is not going to help anything and is not realistic. 

If you have evidence, not anecdote, that social media is propelling an increase in gender incongruence amongst kids by all means present it. 

[Skip997]

4 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I find it very difficult that people ignore the fact that we just don’t have the long term evidence. That we might be damaging the bodies of young people. 
why is it more important to push an ideology than step back and accept that it might just not be all good? 

This is exactly what is happening, CIS (i think that's the right term) are being accused by some of being those who are shutting down debate. Can't people see that that the more radical members of the LGBTQ+ community are also shutting down debate.

[acidstorm523]

2 minutes ago, collectivisedfarming said:

If you have evidence, not anecdote, that social media is propelling an increase in gender incongruence amongst kids by all means present it. 

What I have is 3 late teen kids and common sense. You are in denial if you think you can discount it. 

[acidstorm523]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

This is exactly what is happening, CIS (i think that's the right term) are being accused by some of being those who are shutting down debate. Can't people see that that the more radical members of the LGBTQ+ community are also shutting down debate.

I honestly have spent my whole life from my teens in mixed gay communities , clubbing , music etc. my acceptance of my friends is absolute and my morals never called into question. It was just a given that people expressed themselves however they wish. 
 

Suddenly I am in some weird hostile territory where everyone is angry and I am a terf?! You what?! 
it’s ridiculously out of hand and the adult  trans community needs to have a good look at why they are encouraging kids to potential change their lives forever. Possibly infertile. It’s not ok and I won’t be silenced in questioning that. Calm the hell down and stop the divisive anger. 

[collectivisedfarming]

3 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

What I have is 3 late teen kids and common sense. You are in denial if you think you can discount it. 

There's nothing to discount because that's not evidence, but I'll leave you to your common sense.

[acidstorm523]

4 minutes ago, collectivisedfarming said:

There's nothing to discount because that's not evidence, but I'll leave you to your common sense.

Thank you. Hopefully you will get some common sense, look at the real world around you, and stop relying on outdated research papers to insinuate it is something “terfs” use. Whilst you’re at it, stop using the blanket insult terf on anyone who disagrees with you and try listening yourself. It is so ridiculous it has the effect that I think you aren’t worth listening to as your thinking is so simplistic. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523

[acidstorm523]

13 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

This is exactly what is happening, CIS (i think that's the right term) are being accused by some of being those who are shutting down debate. Can't people see that that the more radical members of the LGBTQ+ community are also shutting down debate.

As evidenced here! We aren’t supposed to debate, just listen… shrug. 

[MEGABOWL]

2 hours ago, acidstorm523 said:

I think it’s sad the the world is such an angry place at the moment. Reasonable debate completely shut down. 
I’m older and grew up in the epicentre of the lgbtq community in London in the 80s. I have always accepted people for whoever they choose to be. 
 

in this case, it seems to me that Rosin is tAlking about a medical intervention that may cause harm to some young people in the long term, so should be looked at fully. Why is it a hate crime to suggest that young and possibly confused people should be thoroughly supported before changing their biology. It’s not a quick fix and although it may well have the effect of making them feel better, a lot of that might be about being actually listened to and feeling their troubles are taken seriously. 

People saying she should be banned because she has a gay fanbase are really confusing a lot of issues and lumping all sorts of groups of people together.  Queer Sexuality is not the same as gender. Queer people and drag queens are not really in the same group as people who want to transition, although of course they find support with eachother. Medical intervention and altering physical bodies forever is not the same as exploring sexuality and gender identity. 
 

All this reactionary anger stifles debate. As a parent of teenagers, you see how kids change their very strong beliefs as they grow. Tomboys , as I was, just don’t seem to exist so much , it’s straight into dysphoria. I think kids are actually put under a lot of pressure by adults. All the hate needs to calm down. I miss the days of live and let live. 

This is a great post. The internet pushes the extremes. If someone’s reaction to posts on the subject is to throw around ‘TERF’ or ‘Groomer’ they’re coming from the extreme end of the debate, they don’t represent the great majority and likely never will.

I saw it in the last few months with the debate here in Scotland when the Government tried to force through their Gender Recognition Reform Bill. I work with a lot of very liberal people who support Gay Marriage, are pro-choice etc. including young Women, Women with kids, Men with teenage daughters, and Gay men. However they all found themselves being in support of some aspects of the bill but against others, and in different ways-though it was noticeable that as with the Scotland-wide polling support fell through the floor when it reached reducing the age for changing gender to 16.

I agree on the lumping together all sorts of groups of people being unfair and inaccurate (and not just because one of the Gay guys I work with is distinctly unsupportive of trans rights, being ‘bored of hearing about how it’s the same as it was for us in the 80s). It ascribes one uniform opinion to countless people (allowing those who don’t agree with every aspect of the extreme position to be negatively judged), and it’s as ridiculous as doing the same to black people or women or all people from one country.

[zahidf]

9 minutes ago, acidstorm523 said:

I honestly have spent my whole life from my teens in mixed gay communities , clubbing , music etc. my acceptance of my friends is absolute and my morals never called into question. It was just a given that people expressed themselves however they wish. 
 

Suddenly I am in some weird hostile territory where everyone is angry and I am a terf?! You what?! 
it’s ridiculously out of hand and the adult  trans community needs to have a good look at why they are encouraging kids to potential change their lives forever. Possibly infertile. It’s not ok and I won’t be silenced in questioning that. Calm the hell down and stop the divisive anger. 

Nobody is calling you a terf on her. And no one is angry

But do you think a blanket statement like I've highlighted above is somewhat divisive? The trans community are not using tik tok to get kids to transition ffs. Hysterical nonsense.

Do you think trans people might be a little upset and angry when you say stuff like that?

 

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Nobody is calling you a terf on her. And no one is angry

But do you think a blanket statement like I've highlighted above is somewhat divisive? The trans community are not using tik tok to get kids to transition ffs. Hysterical nonsense.

Do you think trans people might be a little upset and angry when you say stuff like that?

 

Are you sure?

I suspect there are a very vocal minority who are doing that. Of course I have no evidence, but it's clear that throwing terms like TERF around is far from helpful.

[acidstorm523]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Nobody is calling you a terf on her. And no one is angry

But do you think a blanket statement like I've highlighted above is somewhat divisive? The trans community are not using tik tok to get kids to transition ffs. Hysterical nonsense.

Do you think trans people might be a little upset and angry when you say stuff like that?

 

It was just insinuated that I was a terf by suggesting social media influences kids. But hey Ho, that passes me by 

I didn’t say the trans community was using tik Tok if you look at my words. I was talking about kids encouraging eachother and information being glamourised , in some instances. 
 

adults who are cis, trans, gay or whatever should be looking to calm the situation and help kids to examine their feelings more deeply. All adults should be protecting kids. You have twisted my words. Of course. 
 

adults of any persuasion should act responsibly, stop inflaming the situation and actively discourage kids from buying into their own prejudices. Stop using  terms like Terf that create hate and division. Stop cancelling people hysterically and encourage debate. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523

[acidstorm523]

33 minutes ago, MEGABOWL said:

This is a great post. The internet pushes the extremes. If someone’s reaction to posts on the subject is to throw around ‘TERF’ or ‘Groomer’ they’re coming from the extreme end of the debate, they don’t represent the great majority and likely never will.

I saw it in the last few months with the debate here in Scotland when the Government tried to force through their Gender Recognition Reform Bill. I work with a lot of very liberal people who support Gay Marriage, are pro-choice etc. including young Women, Women with kids, Men with teenage daughters, and Gay men. However they all found themselves being in support of some aspects of the bill but against others, and in different ways-though it was noticeable that as with the Scotland-wide polling support fell through the floor when it reached reducing the age for changing gender to 16.

I agree on the lumping together all sorts of groups of people being unfair and inaccurate (and not just because one of the Gay guys I work with is distinctly unsupportive of trans rights, being ‘bored of hearing about how it’s the same as it was for us in the 80s). It ascribes one uniform opinion to countless people (allowing those who don’t agree with every aspect of the extreme position to be negatively judged), and it’s as ridiculous as doing the same to black people or women or all people from one country.

It really is not helpful to group people together. As you  rightly say, it then becomes impossible to step outside the collective opinion without being judged. 
it’s an interesting and an important debate that should be carefully thought through. I don’t care what kids wear or what they call themselves or what their sexuality is, I only care that we make sure that they don’t damage their physical bodies unnecessarily. That they make calm decisions about something so important and are not encouraged to feel angry at the world. What is the use of that? A generation of unhappy and confused kids potentially. 
for the kids who are helped, there are also kids who are confused. 

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, acidstorm523 said:

It really is not helpful to group people together. As you  rightly say, it then becomes impossible to step outside the collective opinion without being judged. 
it’s an interesting and an important debate that should be carefully thought through. I don’t care what kids wear or what they call themselves or what their sexuality is, I only care that we make sure that they don’t damage their physical bodies unnecessarily. That they make calm decisions about something so important and are not encouraged to feel angry at the world. What is the use of that? A generation of unhappy and confused kids potentially. 
for the kids who are helped, there are also kids who are confused. 

Again kids can only do it with parental consent. Are you saying that kids shouldn't have any elective surgery at all then?

[Skip997]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Again kids can only do it with parental consent. Are you saying that kids shouldn't have any elective surgery at all then?

What age do you define as kids?

 

[acidstorm523]

24 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Again kids can only do it with parental consent. Are you saying that kids shouldn't have any elective surgery at all then?

Give me an example. I would say, in general, as a mother I would prefer to encourage a young person to avoid elective surgery on a growing body. I don’t think it would be necessary in most cases. 
philosophically I think it would be preferable to teach young people to be happy with themselves, make the most of themselves.  Find ways to express that don’t start a lifetime of thinking that cutting up their body is a solution. 
 

there is nothing more important than our health. Current trends like ozempic and plastic surgery are money making and counter productive. Get fit and healthy, lose weight that way. Work for a better body and feel good. We all get old, don’t end up cutting yourself up with the risk of complications like infection and scars. Why?! And in the end looking distorted and then whatever it is goes out of fashion. 
so yes generally, look after the one body you have. Love and respect it and be whoever you want to be. I’m sure it will be a happier way to get older. Where is it leading with all the procedures people are starting in teens and twenties? 
if I could encourage anyone to embrace themselves I would. 
 

Edited September 15, 2023 by acidstorm523

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

What age do you define as kids?

 

Age of consent for the NHS 

[Wooderson]

2 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I fully understand (or, at least I think I do). My mother and father looked down on the members of Opus Dei. They simply were not pious enough - or hypocritical, for that matter. 

 

Apologies - I hadn't observed that. That said ' culchie'!?  People (on here) would be all over you like a rash, for that one. 

My apols dear boy. I'll retract the offensive "culchie" remark and replace it with "bog warrior".

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

My apols dear boy. I'll retract the offensive "culchie" remark and replace it with "bog warrior".

It bothers me not what you say, really. I couldn't give a flying f**k either way. 'Craic' on!

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 hour ago, Wooderson said:

My apols dear boy. I'll retract the offensive "culchie" remark and replace it with "bog warrior".

My apologies -once again - My folks were 'bog' people. It was either that or go out to sea. My dad tried the sea and was, naturally, scared of it. Too many deaths around those parts. I guess that's what drove them to emigrate to the UK. That and the unforgiving winter. 

[Ryan1984]

I fully agree with everyone’s points on Linehan. Just wouldn’t put it past publishers to find an old quote by Ayoade and use that.

[stuie]

4 hours ago, acidstorm523 said:

I am 58 years old, grew up in gay London, and know a few people of my age and older who transitioned. I have no issue with that. A FEW people. 
But living in brighton and working with schools, the number of kids with dysphoria has exploded and you cannot say that is nothing to do with social media. 
It’s an extremely complicated situation that has been created now. 
the debate should be to help kids find ways of dealing with feelings without jumping to extreme solutions to difficulties that may pass naturally. 
I’m really tired of anger being the driving factor from some communities. Tired of being called a cis woman as of that does not allow me a voice

we are all people. We should love and be happy and encourage our children to find their way before jumping to conclusions through things they see around them. To deny that this is not influenced by social media is not going to help anything and is not realistic. 

I’ve said pretty much all I want to on this debate but I’d just like to add that I don’t agree that dysphoria has exploded due to social media. However, social media has shown young people that it’s ok to be what they want to and that there are other people out there who are the same as them or who have been through what they are going through. 

[acidstorm523]

8 minutes ago, stuie said:

I’ve said pretty much all I want to on this debate but I’d just like to add that I don’t agree that dysphoria has exploded due to social media. However, social media has shown young people that it’s ok to be what they want to and that there are other people out there who are the same as them or who have been through what they are going through. 

Absolutely there is that element, I agree that it is good to find that support. But it is also true that young people jump on bandwagons and there is potential for confusion. Teenagers naturally try lots of different ways of being and beliefs. They should be given free rein to do so. 
I’m all for exploring gender ideas and trying out different ways of being. All this debate was about, for me, is medical intervention. This is what the post was about - the fact that RM questioned medical practices. 

[Isaact]

1 hour ago, acidstorm523 said:

Absolutely there is that element, I agree that it is good to find that support. But it is also true that young people jump on bandwagons and there is potential for confusion. Teenagers naturally try lots of different ways of being and beliefs. They should be given free rein to do so. 
I’m all for exploring gender ideas and trying out different ways of being. All this debate was about, for me, is medical intervention. This is what the post was about - the fact that RM questioned medical practices. 

She didn't 'question medical practices', she said puberty blockers were a pharma conspiracy to make money, which is absolute and total bollocks.

[acidstorm523]

7 hours ago, Isaact said:

She didn't 'question medical practices', she said puberty blockers were a pharma conspiracy to make money, which is absolute and total bollocks.

Ok. Is that an anti trans statement ? Is it worthy of “cancelling “ her and ruining her career? Or is it just her opinion about pharmaceutical companies ? I’m no anti vaxxer or conspiracy theorist, but perhaps it is always good to look at where the big money is going. It’s not my argument , I’m just wondering why her statement has led to such a huge reaction apart from blind fury being whipped up on social media and actually a bit of jumping on the wagon .. which was my point in some respects.