Crowd control issues

[DeanoL]

56 minutes ago, iwalker said:

 On the Wednesday and Thursday they need to either have a variety of things on to accommodate the crowd or do nothing and let people make their own entertainment.

Circus tent opening Thursday night (and closing early on Sunday) shows they understand this to some extent - I think that started 2019 (and before anyone asks, yes, it was rammed).

The Williams Green thing is crazy at this point. John Peel tent is bigger right? Could they not at least run the sets there? Even if at the same volume as in WG? 

Surely you could put some big name comic on at the Cabaret tent too? And a Silent Disco somewhere?

I'm aware there are more noise/licensing restrictions on Thursday, but if they can run WG/Circus/Cinema/Cinearmeggon there must be some options there. Put the Bowie 2002 live show on the Pyramid screens Thursday night. Every year. Get a popular acoustic act on at Strummerville. 

Or just try and re-negotiate the license to have the Pyramid run 6pm-10pm on Thursday night. 

[LoraMaze]

3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Circus tent opening Thursday night (and closing early on Sunday) shows they understand this to some extent - I think that started 2019 (and before anyone asks, yes, it was rammed).

The Williams Green thing is crazy at this point. John Peel tent is bigger right? Could they not at least run the sets there? Even if at the same volume as in WG? 

Surely you could put some big name comic on at the Cabaret tent too? And a Silent Disco somewhere?

I'm aware there are more noise/licensing restrictions on Thursday, but if they can run WG/Circus/Cinema/Cinearmeggon there must be some options there. Put the Bowie 2002 live show on the Pyramid screens Thursday night. Every year. Get a popular acoustic act on at Strummerville. 

Or just try and re-negotiate the license to have the Pyramid run 6pm-10pm on Thursday night. 

They should do that with Bowie’s set. They really should, it was magical seeing only a clip of it on the Pyramid big screens back in 2016 

[august1]

13 minutes ago, Sku said:

The "crust" has been mentioned many times. And it is the key issue in my view.

Watching back some of the footage, it's clear how much space there was down the front at many of acts which were considered "dangerously crowded".

I think the problem is, that the back has actually become the most popular place to watch from. It's convenient for the bars, the toilet, for food. It allows you to arrive at the last minute. It allows you to rush off to the next thing without getting stuck. You can set up a chair or picnic blanket if so inclined.

Again, and again, there were just crazy crushes at the BACK of stages, but not at the front. It used to be the case that you would avoid the front to avoid the crush, but now it's totally reversed. The front is totally sparse, and you are free to move around there. The back is a nightmare.

This is the key thing I think here. Crowd density. It's clear from all the BBC footage that crowds are sparse down front. Everyone is turning up at the last minute, and wanting to stand at the back. And then even if you want to get down the front, you cannot get through the wall of people, blankets and chairs.

A much smaller number of people causes a field to be full than ever before. I mean, there are many other contributing factors, but it's simple science that lower crowd density makes for a busier feeling festival. This is the key issue here, crowd behaviour has changed.

this needs to be fedback to the fest, the people who plonk themselves down as soon as they hit the pyramid grass, the flags by the other stage.

Needs to be no chair areas, walking/standing lanes to allow better access in and out

[CaledonianGonzo]

4 minutes ago, august1 said:

this needs to be fedback to the fest, the people who plonk themselves down as soon as they hit the pyramid grass, the flags by the other stage.

Needs to be no chair areas, walking/standing lanes to allow better access in and out

It's not unique to Glastonbury. Happens at gig venues all over the country.

[Matt87]

I've always wondered whether they should put messages on the screens shortly before acts are due to start saying something like, "The next act is about to begin. Please consider standing up now, if you are not already doing so, to allow more room for your fellow festival goers."

Obviously, some wouldn't listen, but it might help?

[Spindles]

51 minutes ago, Larraht said:

No cans of water avaliable in the queue either. A shambles.

I arrived by coach about 1:20pm, queued for less than 20m and was handed water just before the ticketing gate where the gate A queues merge as well as there being a tap in the first section of zig-zags.  It sounds like they reacted to the water situation but too late and in the wrong location.  Last festival the gate A queue had a water station that you could easily get to and back from by the zig-zags, sounds like that was missing this year?

Unfortunately the queue can be piss poor organisation some years.  I know the gate A car people lose out to them trying to keep the coach station clear.

22 minutes ago, Sku said:

I think the problem is, that the back has actually become the most popular place to watch from.

This is the key issue here, crowd behaviour has changed.

Indeed.  People are forming walls at the edges of crowds with chair, buggy and blanket encampments, unaware that they are making it harder on everyone else and if they moved forwards just 50 feet it would make a world of difference.  But I understand it, they aren't comfortable in crowds and want to be somewhere they feel they and often their children are safer.  I can understand that it can be intimidating to have to negotiate a large crowd if you are anxious either about yourself or those who are with you.

I think it would help if they put crowd etiquette/safety/information films in amongst the stuff on screens between gigs.  Many bands I've enjoyed over the years have always made it part of their set to give the speech about looking out for those around you, I don't think it would hurt to have some kind of instructional video for people who aren't familiar with crowds.

[Sku]

Other factors I think contributed to crowd issues:

• The 3 year wait. Everyone wanted to give it the biggun'. That meant milling around non-stop from midday until dawn for many. It used to be the case that if there was nothing you wanted to see until 5pm, you might stay at camp until 5pm drinking some beers with mates. You might go back to camp early for a quiet one around the fire. No longer. Everyone is up and at it the whole time, non stop.
• People used to bemoan the normies who spent all day stood at the pyramid stage, and never saw the rest of the festival. Bet you wished they would stay there now though! Awareness of the "other side of Glastonbury" is now greater than ever. Walking up the hill on Wednesday, going to Williams Green on Thursday, checking our the Theatre and Circus fields in the early afternoon during the main days. Before, these were activities enjoyed by Glastonbury veterans, but now in the mainstream consciousness as "must dos". People used to just hang around their tents, or at the Pyramid.
• The 3 year wait. Everybody wanted to try all the best food, enjoy cold drinks from the bar. To rinse the experience for all it's worth, all the time. This is Glastonbury after all! Throw caution to the wind for a weekend in troubling times. This is the experience economy now, all experience, all the time. Gone is the era of buying a new sofa suite every 3 years to keep up with the joneses, people would rather drop their disposal on expensive "food experiences" at at the festival. Who wants to eat pot noodles, when you can sample (mostly) great food every day? Not to mention the food stalls have had a tough time, and don't have the experienced staff to deal with bigger than ever demand efficiently.
• Living fast and dying fun. Once upon a time, the idea of going to see TLC, McFly or the Sugababes would have attracted ridicule from many groups of mates. Wouldn't you rather go see some "real" music. Nah, sod "real music", Covid has made people realise life is to short to be pretentious. Follow the fun, who cares if it's cheesy. Everyone is just up for a good time after Covid, and who can blame them?
• A lack of diverse music taste. Because of Covid, relatively few acts have "blown up" in the past 3 years. And those that have predictably were really crowded. We were all stuck at home, we didn't have chance to discover new music for ourselves. Radio stations, and "recommendations" from streaming apps have made us all like the same things. And those streaming services also bombard us with fun nostalgic music, because they know we like it, which links back to the previous point about the cheesy nostalgia bands.
• People wanting to do everything. People used to know from experience, if you really wanted to see an act from down front, you would need to turn up during the previous act, whether you liked them or not. But with giant screens, you can now turn up late, stand at the back, and then rush off to the next thing. People wanted to do EVERYTHING this year, and not miss a thing. Again, who can blame them? But it leads to crowding.

Honestly, almost all the issues are due to human behaviour. And totally understandable human behaviour for the most part. This topic is called "crowd control", but I don't particularly remember festivals needing to actively "control" crowds. Simply good scheduling, and wide walk ways were enough, and then crowd controlled themselves.

But I think some in here seem to be suggesting that Glastonbury should have done something to "control" the situations before they developed. But like what? Closing off fields? Do you really want fields to be closed when they are too busy? People used to just leave naturally if it was too busy for their liking. I don't ever remember festivals enforcing active "control" measures to prevent overcrowding. I actually saw more active "crowd control" this weekend than I've ever seen at any festival in my life (e.g. closing off walkways, and preventing access). This seems to be a response to issues caused by human behavioural changes, which was perhaps difficult to exactly predict in advance.

I'm not really sure what the answers are, but I'm sure the entire events industry is paying attention, and will learn the new ways of things. Or perhaps behaviour will just revert to normal again once the industry is back in regular operation again.

[Furq]

Just to add my name to those shocked (and occasionally a little scared) by the overcrowding at bottlenecks at key junctions.

In some cases, people were ignorantly standing around, blocking access. Didn't there used to be stewards with loudhalers moving people on?! They're needed.

Also, with so many folk on-site on Wed/Thur, events need to be spread all over the park to prevent issues. William's Green was hideous at times.

[ScarletBlaster]

58 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Get a popular acoustic act on at Strummerville. 

Whilst this sounds like an obvious and sensible idea on paper, when they did it 2019 with Frank Turner it was absolute carnage. People jumped over the fences and got injured trying to get in.

The Park is surely suitable for a Thursday evening show right? It's not loud at all as you can't hear it properly from the hill.

[Madyaker]

Yeah it was a mess at times. The crush at Arcadia / Park was proper dangerous. But the festival decided to sell more tickets in a year when they should have known they would have trouble getting the same number of security staff and stewards, so it's on them. They really need to stop selling as many tickets and go back to the way it was in 16 and 17 with 135k or whatever it was. No need for it.

[KPSandwiches]

26 minutes ago, Sku said:

Other factors I think contributed to crowd issues:

• The 3 year wait. Everyone wanted to give it the biggun'. That meant milling around non-stop from midday until dawn for many. It used to be the case that if there was nothing you wanted to see until 5pm, you might stay at camp until 5pm drinking some beers with mates. You might go back to camp early for a quiet one around the fire. No longer. Everyone is up and at it the whole time, non stop.
• People used to bemoan the normies who spent all day stood at the pyramid stage, and never saw the rest of the festival. Bet you wished they would stay there now though! Awareness of the "other side of Glastonbury" is now greater than ever. Walking up the hill on Wednesday, going to Williams Green on Thursday, checking our the Theatre and Circus fields in the early afternoon during the main days. Before, these were activities enjoyed by Glastonbury veterans, but now in the mainstream consciousness as "must dos". People used to just hang around their tents, or at the Pyramid.
• The 3 year wait. Everybody wanted to try all the best food, enjoy cold drinks from the bar. To rinse the experience for all it's worth, all the time. This is Glastonbury after all! Throw caution to the wind for a weekend in troubling times. This is the experience economy now, all experience, all the time. Gone is the era of buying a new sofa suite every 3 years to keep up with the joneses, people would rather drop their disposal on expensive "food experiences" at at the festival. Who wants to eat pot noodles, when you can sample (mostly) great food every day? Not to mention the food stalls have had a tough time, and don't have the experienced staff to deal with bigger than ever demand efficiently.
• Living fast and dying fun. Once upon a time, the idea of going to see TLC, McFly or the Sugababes would have attracted ridicule from many groups of mates. Wouldn't you rather go see some "real" music. Nah, sod "real music", Covid has made people realise life is to short to be pretentious. Follow the fun, who cares if it's cheesy. Everyone is just up for a good time after Covid, and who can blame them?
• A lack of diverse music taste. Because of Covid, relatively few acts have "blown up" in the past 3 years. And those that have predictably were really crowded. We were all stuck at home, we didn't have chance to discover new music for ourselves. Radio stations, and "recommendations" from streaming apps have made us all like the same things. And those streaming services also bombard us with fun nostalgic music, because they know we like it, which links back to the previous point about the cheesy nostalgia bands.
• People wanting to do everything. People used to know from experience, if you really wanted to see an act from down front, you would need to turn up during the previous act, whether you liked them or not. But with giant screens, you can now turn up late, stand at the back, and then rush off to the next thing. People wanted to do EVERYTHING this year, and not miss a thing. Again, who can blame them? But it leads to crowding.

Honestly, almost all the issues are due to human behaviour. And totally understandable human behaviour for the most part. This topic is called "crowd control", but I don't particularly remember festivals needing to actively "control" crowds. Simply good scheduling, and wide walk ways were enough, and then crowd controlled themselves.

But I think some in here seem to be suggesting that Glastonbury should have done something to "control" the situations before they developed. But like what? Closing off fields? Do you really want fields to be closed when they are too busy? People used to just leave naturally if it was too busy for their liking. I don't ever remember festivals enforcing active "control" measures to prevent overcrowding. I actually saw more active "crowd control" this weekend than I've ever seen at any festival in my life (e.g. closing off walkways, and preventing access). This seems to be a response to issues caused by human behavioural changes, which was perhaps difficult to exactly predict in advance.

I'm not really sure what the answers are, but I'm sure the entire events industry is paying attention, and will learn the new ways of things. Or perhaps behaviour will just revert to normal again once the industry is back in regular operation again.

Respectfully, I honestly think the biggest contributing factor - and the simplest one - is numbers.

Totally understand what you mean about people wanting to soak it all up after COVID, but I don't recall it ever being like this after a fallow year before... and remember, over a million people try to get tickets for this thing every year, so there's always loads of new people looking for their "firsts". I still feel like I saw the same level of people sleeping in until the afternoon or dossing around the campsite too - but I'm a case study of one, so obviously can't speak for everyone.

Some stuff can absolutely be behavioural and reflective of changing trends / demographics, I agree. But the most common denominator for all the issues mentioned here is numbers. I don't necessarily expect extra degrees of control as you've mentioned, but just the sheer volume of people this time seems to have overwhelmed all the processes / safeguards or whatever. 

[Sku]

Just now, KPSandwiches said:

Respectfully, I honestly think the biggest contributing factor - and the simplest one - is numbers.

Basically, I agree with you. Of course more numbers, leads to more crowded.

The number increase was however somewhat modest, but the difference people "felt", more severe than the numbers alone suggest. So I think there are many contributing factors, and they all go some way to explaining the problem. Just trying to add some fresh viewpoints to the debate 🙂

[KPSandwiches]

4 minutes ago, Sku said:

Basically, I agree with you. Of course more numbers, leads to more crowded.

The number increase was however somewhat modest, but the difference people "felt", more severe than the numbers alone suggest. So I think there are many contributing factors, and they all go some way to explaining the problem. Just trying to add some fresh viewpoints to the debate 🙂

Yeah totally true. Both problems exacerbating the other, probably. Didn't mean to appear dismissive and hopefully all food for thought ahead of next year x

[deletebeep]

The queus at food outlets, ridiculously small portions (5 halloumi fries for £7!!!!???) and cost meant that I spent 90% of the festival starving. Debated on going home on Friday morning as I was fed up with it and the crowds were making me anxious. It was basically impossible to get a reasonably priced filling meal. I ended up spending £10 in co op and eating it all in one go, and I'm a skinny bloke.

Edited June 28, 2022 by deletebeep

[DeanoL]

49 minutes ago, ScarletBlaster said:

Whilst this sounds like an obvious and sensible idea on paper, when they did it 2019 with Frank Turner it was absolute carnage. People jumped over the fences and got injured trying to get in.

The Park is surely suitable for a Thursday evening show right? It's not loud at all as you can't hear it properly from the hill.

It was a few hundred people not trying to get to WG! Obviously needed marshalling better, point being the more performers you have, the more you spread people around. 

Either that, or have none.

[neilbolton]

This year was my first time, attending with my partner who has worked on many of the recent muddy years. With us was a festival regular from the US who's done several big events like Coachella. We also caught up with some friends who had been attending for 17 years, so between us, we had a wide range of experiences. 

We had a great time all in, but it was sullied by the overcrowding issues. We were lucky in that we had hospitality bands and could slip through the interstage cut-throughs - but there were times where you just had to get stuck into it. 

On Thursday night I ended up having a panic attack in The Glade due to how quickly it suddenly filled up when Sasha came on, to the point I had to be dragged out - I've never had a panic attack in a crowd before...

On Friday night, somewhat readier for the crowds, we left Billie's set - which was great, and we had queued from early on for a spot near(ish) to the front, we went with the crowd up toward Arcadia thinking we might get to Groove Armada. Big mistake - we got caught up in THAT crush, which took us a good 45 minutes to get through.

The bit that disgusted me the most about the crush was not the crush itself - arguably no one in the crush can be blamed for it singularly, however, I found the behaviour of those deciding to trample over the tents in the campsite alongside Arcadia leading up to The Park was disgusting. Whatever happened to common sense or decency?

Sunday was the day that disappointed me the most however, we seemed to shuttle from one stage to another to wait for a shit experience; Di-Ro was a long wait toward the back hoping to avoid the queues again, but then when we found we couldn't hear anything, and she wasn't really cutting it, like many others we decided to cut out early and wander down to McFly to get a good spot there. Waited for ages, and then it just went mental again - too crowded and we couldn't really hear once it'd filled up. So we left there and got caught in the crush there too. 

At that point, my partner and I simply cut our losses - we'd exhausted our will to bear the crowds, and despite wanting to see PSB, we decided to leave the site and come home. We're so glad we did now, hearing that it was again a nightmare leaving the other stage. 

Overall, I would echo the sentiments made by others - it felt too much from an attendance perspective - too many in too tight a space most of the time. We would have quite happily stayed in the smaller tents and listened to the alternative stuff, but there wasn't much of that we could get to either. 

As mentioned, we had hospitality, so we were able to use those toilets which was a godsend, so while I saw queues around the site, it wasn't too much of an impact. However, the showers in hospitality did fail and so we had no hot water which was frustrating given the expense. Food was crazy expensive at times, and queueing was challenging unless you ate at odd times. 

Finally, I'll add this one observation - I am deaf; I wear two hearing aids. I found it often very difficult to hear what was being played, especially when sound bleed was occuring - there were times on Thursday night when I wanted to listen to what was being played in places but simply couldn't get close enough to be able to hear properly. That was the most disappointing element for me. 

Those with me with previous experience were shocked at how much busier it was - citing the scheduling as probably one of the leading factors in the crushes based on previous years with decent clashes calming it. 

So my summary is this: I'd heard so much about the experience I was really wanting to love it, but I came away feeling very Meh about it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to bring my 9 and 11 year along, not when its this crowded. Shame, as I enjoyed much of it, but the bits that I didn't kind of ruined the good bits 😞

ETA: Oh yeah, and we've both come home with COVID - the UK is gonna see one hell of a spike in the next few weeks I think...

Edited June 28, 2022 by neilbolton
Forgot something!

[maelzoid]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the weather played a big part of this. If it's raining or muddy a decent portion of people will stay in their tents/gazebos (not all weekend, but at any one time there's probably quite a few thousand just not in the mix). If it's muddy that makes moving harder so people are less likely to make the journey to other stages, not to mention general exhaustion levels are higher which sends people to bed a bit earlier. The heat of 2019 would have a similar effect.

This year, the weather was near perfect and the result was that more people were 'out' for longer.

[Ohinever]

Festival management has seen some changes this year. This is a fact. This obviously has had an effect. 

Crowd numbers started increasing again around 2009 if I recall correctly. These threads became common again around then. 

Pinch points have always been potentially dangerous: need to be policed better. 

Thursday night acts need spreading over site. This solves one issue. 

Arcadia needs it's own field which is a destination in its own right. 

More deliberate clashes on opposite sides of festival are needed. 

I just have a feeling more kids were on site this year than normal (not moaning - mine were too). Think the three years delay has meant that three years worth of kids are now old enough for their parents to bring them, so we see more buggies etc, taking space. 

Some good "time out" venues i.e the organic wine bar have disappeared, so it's harder to find a bit of peace when in the middle of it, and this probably colours peoples' perception. 

People should write the festival/mendip Council if have real concerns. I'm sure those running things try their best, and it's impossible to please all the peeps all the time. 

Like clockwork come ticket day, somebody will post a thread suggesting capacity needs increasing as they've missed out on a brief.... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ohinever

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

Hey all, I messaged the festival on their contact form (it only has a 500 character limit!), to ask if they had an email address so people could relay some of their crowd control issues/experiences to them.

Their reply was pretty quick, in less than 2 hours I think:

So, if anyone would like to give their experiences to the festival and what you would do RE capacity/prices/stewarding/acts on wrong stages/secret sets/poor service in the future, while it's still fresh in your memory, email them on - help@glastonburyfestivals.co.uk

 

Not sure how helpful it is or how many people want to email them, but the more who do, the more likely they'd take notice.

Edited June 28, 2022 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[maelzoid]

Maybe moving Arcadia to Silver Hayes?

SH was such a ghost town this year every time I went through it. Never saw it really buzzing at any point. I think the whole area needs an upgrade to make it a true alternative to the SE corner.

[The Nal]

7 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

SH was such a ghost town this year every time I went through it. Never saw it really buzzing at any point. I think the whole area needs an upgrade to make it a true alternative to the SE corner.

Yep. Which was the point of it originally. Used to be more people there when it was just the old dance village. 

[Greased-Up Deaf Guy]

1 hour ago, Madyaker said:

Yeah it was a mess at times. The crush at Arcadia / Park was proper dangerous. But the festival decided to sell more tickets in a year when they should have known they would have trouble getting the same number of security staff and stewards, so it's on them. They really need to stop selling as many tickets and go back to the way it was in 16 and 17 with 135k or whatever it was. No need for it.

I was going type pretty much this. I'd rather pay more for a ticket than them make more money through volume of sales.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Greased-Up Deaf Guy
Typo

[Crazyfool01]

Anyone know how long Melvin is going to be involved ? 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Madyaker said:

Yeah it was a mess at times. The crush at Arcadia / Park was proper dangerous. But the festival decided to sell more tickets in a year when they should have known they would have trouble getting the same number of security staff and stewards, so it's on them. They really need to stop selling as many tickets and go back to the way it was in 16 and 17 with 135k or whatever it was. No need for it.

🤑

[March Hare]

3 hours ago, LoraMaze said:

There were definitely none with any balls this year, and I think a higher percentage of punters didn’t give a fuck. And just generally more punters too

I definitely noticed an increase in entitled behaviour over my 3 shifts on the gate. Unlucky for them that no fucks were given

Edited June 28, 2022 by March Hare