Crowd control issues

[Tr234]

How much have the ticket numbers increased between 2016 and this year?

[MB1234]

For all the talk about a change in people's behaviour in crowds post-covid, the programming of acts, demographics, weather, stewardship etc, the main reason it was, indisputably, busier this year (than any I've been to over the last ten years, anyway) seems quite clearly because they sold more tickets, at least 7k more I believe. Total numbers this year were 210k, maximum capacity...

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife/glastonbury-festival-attendance-how-many-7241117

 

[willgooneday]

5 minutes ago, MB1234 said:

For all the talk about a change in people's behaviour in crowds post-covid, the programming of acts, demographics, weather, stewardship etc, the main reason it was, indisputably, busier this year (than any I've been to over the last ten years, anyway) seems quite clearly because they sold more tickets, at least 7k more I believe. Total numbers this year were 210k, maximum capacity...

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/whats-on/music-nightlife/glastonbury-festival-attendance-how-many-7241117

 

Not including jibbers - which presumably after a few years without festivals there was more of. 

 

Shove Calvin Harris / David Guetta / Swedish House Mafia or Martin Garrix / Aarmin Van Buuren on main on Thursday night and you'll sort the crowding out. 

[robbie1983]

4 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

Not including jibbers - which presumably after a few years without festivals there was more of. 

 

Shove Calvin Harris / David Guetta / Swedish House Mafia or Martin Garrix / Aarmin Van Buuren on main on Thursday night and you'll sort the crowding out. 

Always thought that a DJ set on John Peel and West Holts on the Thursday would spread the site out 

[Neil]

1 minute ago, robbie1983 said:

Always thought that a DJ set on John Peel and West Holts on the Thursday would spread the site out 

those would need the licence amended.

[clarkete]

30 minutes ago, Neil said:

those would need the licence amended.

Indeed, countless people with suggestions which simply can't happen. 

[willgooneday]

14 minutes ago, clarkete said:

Indeed, countless people with suggestions which simply can't happen. 

Surely the council/police whoever would look at the license if the changes were being made to prevent something worse from a crowd crush? 

[Furq]

1 hour ago, mttJ said:

Bit of a random slightly off topic one but did we ever find out what happened to Michael Orme? The message popped up on the big screens before Fender and Foals, so it must have been something pretty important? Was something along the lines of needing to call home urgently. 

Hope the guy is okay.

Wasn't it a hoax?

"Mike, call home"? "Might call home"?

Edited June 28, 2022 by Furq

[BobWillis2]

6 hours ago, DeanoL said:

And a Silent Disco somewhere?

There used to be one in sonic on a Thursday didn’t there? 

[mttJ]

Just now, Furq said:

Wasn't it a hoax?

"Mike, call home"

Hahaha didn't even remotely clock.

[essjay2009]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:14 AM, dulcificum said:

Lots of reports about bad crushes at William's Green, The Park for Wet Leg, West Holts for TLC and Avalon for Sugababes. 

Just spent over 30 mins at a standstill in one of the most terrifying and dangerous crushes I've witnessed at the junction between Park and Arcadia. No security or signage to be seen, nobody knew what was going on, no movement in any direction even though there are five potential exit routes.

What on earth is going on this year? 

 

I was in both the TLC crush and the Arcadia / Park one. We actually got to TLC over an hour early because I thought it was going to be rammed. My Mrs needed to use the loos, set off when Sleaford Mods was still on and it took 45 minutes. For reference, we were near the benches, so quite near the back, and quite near the toilets. never seen it that bad there, and this was my fifth time.

The Park / Arcadia was even worse. my Mrs was actually scared for her safety because everyone was pushing without the crowd actually moving anywhere. We've never experienced anything that bad, and we got caught in the Corbyn crush a few years ago.

There were a few things that stuck out to me. The most obvious one, and as others have already said, is the scheduling. TLC are too big a draw for West Holts and there wasn't really anything up against them of interest. And that was true for a lot of the crushes - they were the "obvious" acts to go and see. Sometimes these were chained together across multiple stages, so huge crowds were moving together, making it feel busier and meaning you never really got a break from it.

Arcadia was generally a mess all weekend. The sound was awful, Metamorphis wasn't running so it was a bit boring, they'd removed some of the ways in and out, and I think during the crush a load of people had turned up not realising that the Chemical Brothers weren't actually playing, so got there and immediately tried to leave.

I generally thought there were far too few security people to do crowd management. I heard anecdotally from someone on site that they couldn't recruit enough professional security staff so were relying on volunteers to do stuff the professionals would normally do.

[Penrhos]

Thursday Williams green was a total clusterfuck and I'm amazed no-one got hurt. Same at Glade later on. Either open up enough stages to accommodate the punters or don't open any up. they could have had music playing over the PA on the stages just for people to listen to while eating /milling around.

Friday - Sunday Arcadia was stupidly busy to the point of being unpleasant enough for me to bail. 

SE corner wasn't too bad but still felt like too many people milling around as they couldn't find somewhere with space/music they wanted in fact IICON was one of my favorite locations down that end of the field space, toilets and some decent sets.

I hate the new layout of Silver Hayes where you get shoved down a never-ending row of food stalls and the old cut-trough has gone it adds ages to a Pyramid <-> Other trip Moving Beat Hotel further out was a great idea and I got in there a few times without issues, also once you've worked this out you just exit the pyramid by the merch stand and loop through the back of Glade as it's loads quicker (until the Sunday night Headliner crush).

I don't know how they got it so wrong this year and it's likely to affect the license. 

1) Huge queues for any toilet to the point I've never seen so many people pissing up fences/trees - so expect a fine from the water agency at least.

2) I've never seen the long drops so full so early - either people were pissing/shitting more or there were less toilets available or there were a lot more people using them.

3) This might be a post covid behavior change but the outskirts of most main stages were rammed but once you cleared it there was room near the stage so you had more space the nearer the stage you got.

4) nowhere near enough signage for directions or staff directing people.

5) Wrong acts on the wrong sized stages at the wrong times.

6) The site didn't feel finished and the most of the staff didn't seem to know what they were doing (or didn't care).

7) "Privileged wristband users" hardly inclusive if all the hospitality etc punters flash a wristband and can take shortcuts between the stages.

Finally how many people forgot the main rule of being on a crowded festival site during lock down - "Don't be a dick!"

Won't stop me trying for 2023 - but they need to do better...

 

 

[Skelts]

20 minutes ago, Penrhos said:

 

3) This might be a post covid behavior change but the outskirts of most main stages were rammed but once you cleared it there was room near the stage so you had more space the nearer the stage you got.

 

 

This was really obvious from the high angle tv shots over the weekend. Break through the crowd crust and there was loads of room. Just look at Skunk Anansie’s set as an example 

[clarkete]

51 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

Surely the council/police whoever would look at the license if the changes were being made to prevent something worse from a crowd crush? 

Obviously any change to the licence by the council won't include offering to let GFL open for an extra night. 

[willgooneday]

1 minute ago, clarkete said:

Obviously any change to the licence by the council won't include offering to let GFL open for an extra night. 

It's already open 5 nights though. If everybody is getting their on Thursday anyway why not have a DJ set or whatever on Thursday at a main stage? 

 

The sites so big anyway I doubt John Peel running for an extra 2 hours is gonna annoy anyone 

[FLB]

I witnessed a few of the crushes mentioned and was able to avoid the worst of it by backtracking and taking a longer route around. I had also marked some of the spots I thought would be busier on my clashfinder so I knew to avoid certain areas at various times each day. The same can be said for walking an extra 5 minutes to quieter toilets/food stalls. I had a blast, but the fact that I had to pre-plan avoidance spots isn't a good thing and there always seems to be a few very questionable decisions wrt scheduling, not just this year.

Some things I noticed this time:

• There aren't enough toilets in the main areas in general. The toilets are always located at major junctions/potential pinch points, which makes sense for easy access for cleaning etc but can cause issues when there are people having to queue for them and others are trying to exit the area.
• My feet are wrecked from the 'woodchip'. Imo they just need to put more plastic mats down in the main areas instead to make the 'paths' wider, since most people seem to feel uncomfortable leaving the mats anyway, especially when it gets muddy.
• Perhaps the extra queues for food were due to a combination of prices at some of the stalls, more people on site in general and many traders going out of business during the pandemic. I have always found it a bit odd that the most obvious place to put food stalls largely contains clothing etc. Also perhaps if WaterAid stalls did free hot water that might cut down on some of the queueing for tea/coffee? I abandon plans of eating my usual healthy diet at festivals but I still don't want to eat vegan food, and this time I did feel like there was a lot of focus on catering to the small number of strict vegan eaters, especially since we're supporting a dairy farm by being there in the first place!
• Obviously, Thursday needs a rethink. I never bother with Williams Green but I did try the Glade this time before giving up and heading to Greenpeace/SEC instead, which were great fun and not too busy. Instead of driving the Notting Hill Carnival bus around the site, why not park it in the Pyramid field and let people hang out there for a while?
• The lockups are great, but they feel a bit too close to the campsites to be useful for storing backpacks of warmer clothing, chairs etc during the day. If they put a couple of lockups closer to the action it might persuade some people to carry fewer things around with them.
• Scheduling big acts on small stages is stupid, but so is scheduling in acts where it's obvious there will be a big crowd switch (e.g. Sleaford Mods > TLC). Also someone needs to tell Fatboy Slim that he can't just play whenever/wherever he wants any more. As mentioned there were a few spots on the schedule that stood out as being obviously busy, which there is no excuse for and it's only a matter of time before something bad happens.
• Iicon is a brilliant venue with loads of space, and whilst they had a much better lineup there than in 2019 imo they should still be putting the biggest acts on there at night instead of places like Arcadia, Gas Tower, Glade etc. Arcadia needs a complete revamp, which I think they were trying to do but had to abandon due to issues with planning/budget.
• The crowd crust was ridiculous and I hope there are more PSAs about how to behave in general, not just wrt 'love the farm', 'don't pee on the land' etc. It's a shame that this feels needed, but clearly it is.

On a more positive note, it seemed much easier to get water in the main areas than in 2019 and although the toilets were busy they at least always had hand sanitizer. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by FLB

[clarkete]

Just now, willgooneday said:

It's already open 5 nights though. If everybody is getting their on Thursday anyway why not have a DJ set or whatever on Thursday at a main stage? 

 

The sites so big anyway I doubt John Peel running for an extra 2 hours is gonna annoy anyone 

But for the most part it is and always has been making noise for 3 nights.  Any solution involving the council would typically involve them suggesting restrictions. . 

[jimmillen]

13 minutes ago, clarkete said:

Obviously any change to the licence by the council won't include offering to let GFL open for an extra night. 

I’m not as intimately familiar with the proceedings of the license committee as many on here. Would be genuinely curious to know what the main blockers to more stages & entertainment on Thurs actually are?

I thought it was all about noise levels - they’re willing to accept the massive PAs on the main stages on 3 nights but not 4. So couldn’t they just run some more stages so long as the volume stayed down?

Are there any other reasons? I mean, it would be ludicrous if it’s based on numbers or traffic given the site opens on Weds anyway.

I totally get that the license needs to be respected to ensure the future of the festival. But wouldn’t a proposal that enhances on-site safety whilst causing very little real impact on local residents be at least something to discuss? 

Edited June 28, 2022 by jimmillen

[Alvoram]

So is it true that they raised capacity and sold more tickets... THEN had to sell even more tickets on top of that due to bottlegate? 

Also I'm hearing lots of stories of jumpers... Not a crazy mass breach or anything, just lots of stories of small groups getting over and running for it with little effort from security. 

[Alvoram]

For those interested in knowing why they cannot use any of the main stages on the earlier nights, this is what their license says regarding timings...

With more detailed information from page 15 of the license under the licensing objectives section... As I previously mentioned, see 'The prevention of public nuisance' from page 15 here - https://www.mendip.gov.uk/media/16324/Glastonbury-Festival-Premises-Licence/pdf/Premises_Licence_PRL767_-_Glastonbury_Festival_-_Web_copy.pdf?m=636867092213100000

It seems to me that up until 10am on Friday, they are only allowed to operate sound systems up to 12kw, regardless of stage / location, without the express written permission of the licensing authority.

Sound systems aren't my strength (I know a bit about licensing, given I'm both a personal and premises license holder) Maybe some of the sound geeks here can confirm, but wouldn't 12kw be at it's useful limit even at smaller venues like Williams Green? 

I'm guessing this is the problem, it's not the size of the stage, they could use the pyramid if they wanted, but limiting the sound system to 12kw there, as per the licensing conditions, just makes it a dumb idea. 

[RaphPH]

I camped out at the front of the Pyramid Stage from Easy Life all the way to Macca. Was never pushed or felt crushed once and I remarked to my fellow audience members that usually there’s a massive crush. At the back, my pals were having a torrid time. 

[ManLj]

I have some thoughts on this, tried to break it up into different sections for clarity and ordered top to bottom by impact on feeling of overcrowding but essentially lots of factors at play.

People holding on to their tickets - as a result of  the last 2 years being written off, demand was stronger than ever with people wanting to let their hair down. Not only did people hold on to tickets but they made sure they turned up too because of how much they’ve looked forward to Glasto this year. This also applies to locals with Sunday only tickets.

Poor scheduling - lots of acts on stages simply too small for the crowd they pull / misplaced or up against weak competition so there’s no real clash to split the crowd. Examples - anything on Thursday afternoon (see train strikes point here too), Wet Leg on the Park, TLC on West Holts, Diana Ross up against Fontaines DC and with empty stages (Other, Park, John Peel) for at least 30mins of her set. 

Weaker lineup than previous years - as a group of music fans the majority of us weren’t bothered by a lot of the lineup this year, we’ve all done at least 3/4 Glasto’s and commented that we’ve not stomped about so much this year to see a wider variety of acts. Rather, most of the group strolled into the festival around 2pm to catch a handful of the bigger, popular acts who would naturally draw a bigger crowd. 

Weather - we had another great year weather wise, people stayed on site longer and didn’t leave early after being put off by rain. Another aspect of this is that the heat forces people to sit outside when the shaded spots are full, whereas in damp conditions people want shelter and so you lose people from walkways into dry tents. You also can’t sit down when it’s wet so from a general space perspective, people take up more room when lounging about on the floor, for example, outside John Peel or in the Park.

Train Strikes - train cancellations on Thursday and Saturday will have caused people to change their plans. Almost half our group (10 of us) who were coming from London on Thursday changed plans to arrive by car on Weds instead. These people would have been on site anyway but I think this is a direct contributor to Thursday feeling so busy.

Extra tickets sold - we know there were 7000 extra tickets this year, some reports say this was split between punters and workers. I don’t believe anything people say about rumours the festival sold 30 or 50k extra tickets to make up for covid losses etc. That kind of gross negligence could get people killed and would land people in Jail if it ever got out. There are plenty of operational constraints and licensing issues that would prevent this too.

We’ve not been in crowds that big for nearly 3 years - there are pinch points on site every year and I do think we have in part just forgotten how busy it can get (think: arcadia, south east corner, Thursday, the railway line, anywhere there’s a secret set)

Fence jumpers / Security staffing problems - lots of documented comments about people jumping the fence or being able to get in via weaker / less patrolled areas like Sticklinch and Worthy View. I saw a group of at least 15 people in the park on Thursday without any kind of wristband on.

We all still had a great time and I think the feeling of overcrowding this year is a complex nuanced issue. I’ve tried to give a summary of my thoughts ☺️

[gfa]

12 hours ago, jimmillen said:

Yeah, it was definitely busier. 

Was never in anything that felt remotely dangerous to me, sad to hear some others were. 3 particular points:

- Railway track around SL on Thurs daytime, not even any acts on - what was that all about?!

- Crowd after Libertines on Fri afternoon - we weren’t even trying to watch, we just wandered through at the wrong time on the way to the Park and got stuck for ages. 

- Exodus from George Ezra at JPT on Sun - was going the opposite way through the woods to watch Clairo and it was hopeless. Usually you can make slow progress against the flow but gave up & stood to one side until it died down a bit. 

Otherwise didn’t really affect me too badly, but as others have said it changes your experience of the festival. 

Other than reducing numbers I’m not sure what the festival can do about it. Maybe more use of one way systems… but v difficult to enforce without totally changing the layout. 🤷‍♂️

Not surprised it was impossible to get to Clairo, we stayed for her after Ezra and you could easily walk to the barrier, we sat about 3 rows back until like 5 minutes before she was on!

10 minutes ago, ManLj said:

I have some thoughts on this, tried to break it up into different sections for clarity and ordered top to bottom by impact on feeling of overcrowding but essentially lots of factors at play.

People holding on to their tickets - as a result of  the last 2 years being written off, demand was stronger than ever with people wanting to let their hair down. Not only did people hold on to tickets but they made sure they turned up too because of how much they’ve looked forward to Glasto this year. This also applies to locals with Sunday only tickets.

Poor scheduling - lots of acts on stages simply too small for the crowd they pull / misplaced or up against weak competition so there’s no real clash to split the crowd. Examples - anything on Thursday afternoon (see train strikes point here too), Wet Leg on the Park, TLC on West Holts, Diana Ross up against Fontaines DC and with empty stages (Other, Park, John Peel) for at least 30mins of her set. 

Weaker lineup than previous years - as a group of music fans the majority of us weren’t bothered by a lot of the lineup this year, we’ve all done at least 3/4 Glasto’s and commented that we’ve not stomped about so much this year to see a wider variety of acts. Rather, most of the group strolled into the festival around 2pm to catch a handful of the bigger, popular acts who would naturally draw a bigger crowd. 

Weather - we had another great year weather wise, people stayed on site longer and didn’t leave early after being put off by rain. Another aspect of this is that the heat forces people to sit outside when the shaded spots are full, whereas in damp conditions people want shelter and so you lose people from walkways into dry tents. You also can’t sit down when it’s wet so from a general space perspective, people take up more room when lounging about on the floor, for example, outside John Peel or in the Park.

Train Strikes - train cancellations on Thursday and Saturday will have caused people to change their plans. Almost half our group (10 of us) who were coming from London on Thursday changed plans to arrive by car on Weds instead. These people would have been on site anyway but I think this is a direct contributor to Thursday feeling so busy.

Extra tickets sold - we know there were 7000 extra tickets this year, some reports say this was split between punters and workers. I don’t believe anything people say about rumours the festival sold 30 or 50k extra tickets to make up for covid losses etc. That kind of gross negligence could get people killed and would land people in Jail if it ever got out. There are plenty of operational constraints and licensing issues that would prevent this too.

We’ve not been in crowds that big for nearly 3 years - there are pinch points on site every year and I do think we have in part just forgotten how busy it can get (think: arcadia, south east corner, Thursday, the railway line, anywhere there’s a secret set)

Fence jumpers / Security staffing problems - lots of documented comments about people jumping the fence or being able to get in via weaker / less patrolled areas like Sticklinch and Worthy View. I saw a group of at least 15 people in the park on Thursday without any kind of wristband on.

We all still had a great time and I think the feeling of overcrowding this year is a complex nuanced issue. I’ve tried to give a summary of my thoughts ☺️

You put people holding onto tickets but by all accounts the resale was one of the easiest for 10+ years it seems.

[Tranquility of Solitude]

Gonna post my own experience this year. I was never in a crowd that bothered me (have been in years past). That obviously has to be qualified by a couple of things. I was working Thursday pm when I hear there were serious issues around Williams Green. I was also working Saturday when Macca was on. However I was at Diana.... and at the risk of being shouted down... knowing there would be a huge crowd, I went in via Acoustic stage, back of Kidz Field, entering Pyramid from the back, avoiding Mandela or Cider Bus side. It was easy.  I’m not saying that to be smug, but to perhaps highlight some of the earlier points made. The issue is the choke points and layout, not the numbers. Not saying I have any answers, but there’s no avoiding the fact that a bit of preparation, and knowledge can help the festival incorporate the crowds. I hate to say it, but I’m convinced the larger problem isn’t the numbers, or the organisation...... it’s the minority of fuckwits who attend. They stand and chat in choke points, they have no self awareness, they put blankets, chairs etc down.. (there was someone pitched a tent at the back of Diana for their small child to stay out the sun). Basically.... there was no problem this year that we haven’t seen before. Everyone bleating about health and safety, and danger to life etc. They’re winding me up. Sanitise the festival to suit your agenda if you like, but be careful what you demand.  The experience will be greatly reduced.

[David Gray (90+2)]

Should preface this by saying it was my first Glastonbury, and the only festivals I've done before were either Latitudes 2009-12 as a kid and a few day festivals in London more recently. As such, I've got quite a limited frame of reference to work off.

I felt that all in all the crowd was largely lovely and kept themselves to themselves even during busier changes between sets. I was on stuff Friday and Saturday and did not feel intimidated by others in the crowd, nor did I feel like the festival was 'oversubscribed' or 'full of the wrong people' as some on here have suggested.

I would say that the movement between Arcadia and the Park on Friday night was noticeably bad. Having been caught up in that, I don't really know what to suggest, but it was a hairy moment and one I would not like to repeat again.

Beyond that, there were no other 'bad' crushes I experienced the whole festival. People's general sense to keep to the left meant that the two-way traffic was minimised, and it was a better time for this.

The phenomenon of large outer crowd smaller front crowd was noticeable, and I was often a beneficiary of this: both Haim and Diana Ross were better for having had (relatively) empty crowds at the front of the Pyramid Stage.

Ultimately, I think that the crowds do not deserve the navel gazing this thread has warranted. Yes, there were a couple of bizarre scheduling choices - such as Wet Leg on The Park at 2pm - but there were many good choices which helped to split the crowd up enough to avoid worse crushes.

Ideally, you would experience a festival free of any kind of difficulties, but I have enough realism to accept that is extremely unlikely. I enjoyed my first ever Glastonbury tremendously, and nothing I experienced would put me off again.