Crowd control issues

[Spindles]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

those would need the licence amended.

I think the license needs amending.  I think the locals and the council need to accept that this is an important part of the local economy and that they need to accommodate a wider period of amplified music to allow main stages to either play lower volume sets by the kind of acts currently playing williams green Thursday or using those spaces to provide some other kind of entertainment (like singalong hits with stuff on the screens or classic glastonbury gigs like Bowie or Shakespeare's sister).

If the festival is to continue to thrive I think it needs to be given more freedom to expand events before lunchtime Friday.  Thursday has become a day when people are hungry for something to do and this really showed this year.

[GeezLouise]

Notices saying to walk on the left would be great. 

[rebeccac]

12 hours ago, Sku said:

 

Honestly, almost all the issues are due to human behaviour. And totally understandable human behaviour for the most part. This topic is called "crowd control", but I don't particularly remember festivals needing to actively "control" crowds. Simply good scheduling, and wide walk ways were enough, and then crowd controlled themselves.

But I think some in here seem to be suggesting that Glastonbury should have done something to "control" the situations before they developed. But like what? Closing off fields? Do you really want fields to be closed when they are too busy? People used to just leave naturally if it was too busy for their liking. I don't ever remember festivals enforcing active "control" measures to prevent overcrowding. I actually saw more active "crowd control" this weekend than I've ever seen at any festival in my life (e.g. closing off walkways, and preventing access). This seems to be a response to issues caused by human behavioural changes, which was perhaps difficult to exactly predict in advance.

I'm not really sure what the answers are, but I'm sure the entire events industry is paying attention, and will learn the new ways of things. Or perhaps behaviour will just revert to normal again once the industry is back in regular operation again.

In 2009 they closed access to where Rolf Harris was on due to the size of the crowd (can’t remember the name of the stage now) so they definitely can and have implemented crowd control before

[westholtschic]

5 hours ago, Spindles said:

I think the license needs amending.  I think the locals and the council need to accept that this is an important part of the local economy and that they need to accommodate a wider period of amplified music to allow main stages to either play lower volume sets by the kind of acts currently playing williams green Thursday or using those spaces to provide some other kind of entertainment (like singalong hits with stuff on the screens or classic glastonbury gigs like Bowie or Shakespeare's sister).

If the festival is to continue to thrive I think it needs to be given more freedom to expand events before lunchtime Friday.  Thursday has become a day when people are hungry for something to do and this really showed this year.

I also think not having a silent disco this year impacted the crowd distribution on Thursday as well.

[brettredmayne]

Just a thought about scheduling as this is brought up a bit .

I could be totally wrong but 3 stages are booked by Glastonbury itself and then I thought the other stages have own bookers .

What influence do Glastonbury have on just say the west holts bookers when TLC are on the lineup .

Do Glastonbury have any way of changing the times or just saying this is going to get crowded we can’t have them booked 

[Pinhead]

Noticable where some crushes take place is the contribution food queues make in reducing crowd flow and providing an obsticle to movement, particularly exiting Pyramid left past Cider Bus.... Just shutting fields cannot work well either as people feel they've  paid to see something and this creates animosity and trouble for stewards / security controlling entry. Arcadia needs another access route from Hayes taking footfall from West of the site.

[jimmillen]

1 hour ago, Pinhead said:

Noticable where some crushes take place is the contribution food queues make in reducing crowd flow and providing an obsticle to movement, particularly exiting Pyramid left past Cider Bus.... 

Spot on this - also toilet queues. This was especially bad leaving the Other around towards the Glade where there were always long queues clashing with the flow of people leaving the stage. 

Some way of segregating off toilet/food/bar queues from people moving through would help a lot IMO. Again, tricky to achieve in reality though. 

[DirtyLurker]

9 hours ago, Tranquility of Solitude said:

Gonna post my own experience this year. I was never in a crowd that bothered me (have been in years past). That obviously has to be qualified by a couple of things. I was working Thursday pm when I hear there were serious issues around Williams Green. I was also working Saturday when Macca was on. However I was at Diana.... and at the risk of being shouted down... knowing there would be a huge crowd, I went in via Acoustic stage, back of Kidz Field, entering Pyramid from the back, avoiding Mandela or Cider Bus side. It was easy.  I’m not saying that to be smug, but to perhaps highlight some of the earlier points made. The issue is the choke points and layout, not the numbers. Not saying I have any answers, but there’s no avoiding the fact that a bit of preparation, and knowledge can help the festival incorporate the crowds. I hate to say it, but I’m convinced the larger problem isn’t the numbers, or the organisation...... it’s the minority of fuckwits who attend. They stand and chat in choke points, they have no self awareness, they put blankets, chairs etc down.. (there was someone pitched a tent at the back of Diana for their small child to stay out the sun). Basically.... there was no problem this year that we haven’t seen before. Everyone bleating about health and safety, and danger to life etc. They’re winding me up. Sanitise the festival to suit your agenda if you like, but be careful what you demand.  The experience will be greatly reduced.

Did the same for Diana Ross & Haim, went via Kidz & up through Big Ground, also whenever we went to an expected busy Avalon went via the Block 9 gates, got in for McFly 5mins before they shut the gates.

Same as you, not saying what we did was better or being smug but I don't like being in a throng/melee of people & I need an escape route.  

Any time I wanted to be somewhere I would always take the long way round.

Only time I was uncomfortable was Sat aft when something had finished on Other & I stupidly went through that way to get to William's Green, via BBC introducing - I'd basically got lost, how I got lost I've no idea!

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

I've heard a lot about Williams Green being rammed, but what about the Park? The Rabbit Hole, Bimble Inn, HMS Sweet Charity, all had stuff going on. Was it just as busy there as in Williams Green?

Surely, if they have all those places open, they could stick something on like a silent disco. They used to have one there back in 2009/2010. Can't for the life of me remember the name of the venue, but I remember the queue was always long for it.

Also, second the idea about opening the Circus and Theatre tents up on Thursday too, at least from mid-afternoon. Obviously, any talk of opening up more places means more people have to be hired, which means raising the cost of the ticket.

Again, if you're blowing 285 on a ticket, 50 on travel, another 150 on food and drink, (500 quid say in total) you can easily afford to cut down on other things during the year to pay for the extra 20-30 quid on the ticket price.

[DeanoL]

19 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Also, second the idea about opening the Circus and Theatre tents up on Thursday too, at least from mid-afternoon. Obviously, any talk of opening up more places means more people have to be hired, which means raising the cost of the ticket.

Circus and Theatre are already open, have been since 2019. The cost is offset by them closing at around 7pm on Sunday instead of running into the night. I can't think of any reason in the license that would allow Circus and Theatre to open and not Mavericks/Cabaret. Mavericks might have been open actually - there's something listed for it. 

From the license, I can't understand how Williams' Green is even allowed to run on Thursday at all? If it's that a tent contains noise better, surely it'd still be better to run John Peel. Even if you can only keep the volume the same, better to have people at the back of tent decide it's too quiet and leave than not have space for them to go anywhere. Plus it's not in the middle of a major route through the centre of the site.

I know it's extremely unlikely you'd get agreement for a full-volume Pyramid set on the Thursday night, but they managed to show the football (with sound) one year so showing films or footage of older sets, something cool that will draw people away is clearly viable, it's been done.

It seems to me the only thing that the council would really properly object to is loud music on Thursday - (but given when I went back to my tent in Rivermead on Thursday night at around midnight, I could still hear sound systems pumping out stuff from somewhere, so I have trouble believe it's silent outside the site)  - can we not work within that? Silent discos, non-music acts, quieter acts...

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

39 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Circus and Theatre are already open, have been since 2019. The cost is offset by them closing at around 7pm on Sunday instead of running into the night. I can't think of any reason in the license that would allow Circus and Theatre to open and not Mavericks/Cabaret. Mavericks might have been open actually - there's something listed for it. 

From the license, I can't understand how Williams' Green is even allowed to run on Thursday at all? If it's that a tent contains noise better, surely it'd still be better to run John Peel. Even if you can only keep the volume the same, better to have people at the back of tent decide it's too quiet and leave than not have space for them to go anywhere. Plus it's not in the middle of a major route through the centre of the site.

I know it's extremely unlikely you'd get agreement for a full-volume Pyramid set on the Thursday night, but they managed to show the football (with sound) one year so showing films or footage of older sets, something cool that will draw people away is clearly viable, it's been done.

It seems to me the only thing that the council would really properly object to is loud music on Thursday - (but given when I went back to my tent in Rivermead on Thursday night at around midnight, I could still hear sound systems pumping out stuff from somewhere, so I have trouble believe it's silent outside the site)  - can we not work within that? Silent discos, non-music acts, quieter acts...

Ah okay. I took no interest in the festival at all between 2018-2020, so must have missed the opening of Circus and Theatre for 2019. But then, I can't see anything on the Clashfinder about them being open? I've unhidden all the stages as well. Strange.

Or even the Acoustic tent? That's pretty sizeable and in the right area for overspill/not blocking any thoroughfares. Even if they stuck on karaoke or opened it up for "radio" music and let people chill out there until turning it into a silent disco for one night only.

Also, I don't know why they're effectively now operating two cinemas on site. Pilton Palais and Cinemaarmaggedon. Seems a bit overkill to me. The latter also takes up a lot of space for very few people - it's more or less the size of the front part of the Park including the Rabbit Hole, HMS charity, and all the bars and shops there. I'd bet anything more people are in the Park areas on Thursday night than the whole of Cinemaarmaggedon all weekend.

Have Glastonbury ever admitted they've made a mistake and get rid of a feature after a couple of showings?

Talking about overkill as well, I think someone else mentioned, why are there two dance areas? South East corner rivals and has taken over Silver Hayes now for years. They either need to divvy up the size of the DJs better so there's a more even split, or rethink one of the areas completely.

 

[Joshuwarr]

I know the individual areas need their autonomy and probably like to book their own acts but at what point can the festival intervene? Its just silly having the likes of Sugababes and McFly on at the Avalon. If either had been on the Pyramid early afternoon they'd have had huge crowds but instead the select few with the time and ability to show up early get to see them. Its a real shame for fans and the acts who'd have loved to have played to the huge crowds.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

11 hours ago, Tranquility of Solitude said:

Gonna post my own experience this year. I was never in a crowd that bothered me (have been in years past). That obviously has to be qualified by a couple of things. I was working Thursday pm when I hear there were serious issues around Williams Green. I was also working Saturday when Macca was on. However I was at Diana.... and at the risk of being shouted down... knowing there would be a huge crowd, I went in via Acoustic stage, back of Kidz Field, entering Pyramid from the back, avoiding Mandela or Cider Bus side. It was easy.  I’m not saying that to be smug, but to perhaps highlight some of the earlier points made. The issue is the choke points and layout, not the numbers. Not saying I have any answers, but there’s no avoiding the fact that a bit of preparation, and knowledge can help the festival incorporate the crowds. I hate to say it, but I’m convinced the larger problem isn’t the numbers, or the organisation...... it’s the minority of fuckwits who attend. They stand and chat in choke points, they have no self awareness, they put blankets, chairs etc down.. (there was someone pitched a tent at the back of Diana for their small child to stay out the sun). Basically.... there was no problem this year that we haven’t seen before. Everyone bleating about health and safety, and danger to life etc. They’re winding me up. Sanitise the festival to suit your agenda if you like, but be careful what you demand.  The experience will be greatly reduced.

It's a bit late to complain about the festival being sanitised.

15 quid meals.

Threads on here about where to buy the nicest cheese.

A Co-op on site.

More commercial pop year on year.

Showers and hot tubs.

Glamping up to a cost of a couple thousand pounds.

But you draw the line at people "bleating about health and safety"?

 

[SighMo]

On 6/27/2022 at 10:40 PM, SouthbanKen said:

Agreed, loads of people saying that the toilets and food stalls were busier and you had to queue for ages at the bars. I don't think i queued for more than 5 minutes for food or drink at any point over the festival - just used bars and food stalls that weren't next to the main stages or used them when there was an act on that i didn't want to see. Same with the loo's. If you need to eat your dinner from 18.00 - 20.00 right next to the Pyramid during a gap between acts expect to queue. If you don't want to queue for ages, be a bit more flexible. It's really not difficult. 

Can’t remember queuing for more than five mins for anything. Ignored any massive toilet or food queues and moved on to next nearest. You soon get to know the ones that aren’t worth trying at, like the ones round the corner from the Other stage. 

[scaryclaireyfairy]

West Holts should have had a one way system in at least for TLC. That was mental. Anywhere else, it could have turned out very differently.

Crowd crust is clearly a big problem from watching stuff back on the iPlayer and reading here. For example, I was just inside the tent for Heaton and Abbott and there was plenty of room to dance.

I don't think it felt any busier in terms of numbers than it did last time. There were just some stupid pinches that could have been predicted and mitigation measures put in.

Edited June 29, 2022 by scaryclaireyfairy

[4AssedMonkey]

Didn't really have any issues with food/toilet queues either TBF.  But in fairness I've learnt from past errors that certain toilet blocks at certain times are a no-no and that eating outside of "normal" meal times helps hugely.

There's no way the licence will get changed to allow main stages to open on Thursday.  The reason WG gets away with it is down to geography as much as anything as the natural hill blocks sound from Pilton.  JP would be much louder from there as I think that's the closest stage to the village itself.  That's one of the reasons the SE corner gets the late night stuff, as it's the furthest point from any residential properties so causes the least disturbance.  For similar reasons, I don't think Arcadia in Silver Hayes would work as the noise escaping would be too much.

I'm sure the extra tickets were a factor here, but the more I think about it, the more I reckon the scheduling was the main problem.  Of course Sugababes/McFly were going to draw a huge crown to a small area.  Of course TLC would be be packed out when you look at the acts they were up against who were arguably less of a spectacle and would be easier to get tickets for in the UK outside the festival.  Of course Wet Leg had exploded far too big to be on the Park at 2pm.  Looking at what was kicking out and who was coming on at the Park/Arcadia crush, that was probably predictable to a degree also.  With hindsight, some of this could have been easily avoided with planning.

I think the earlier posts about maybe ditching some of the smaller and less populous areas (Cineramageddon etc.) and trying to spread things out maybe has merit.  I also agree with the earlier post about trying to get back more akin to JP = New Acts, Pyramid/Other = Established, West Holts = World Music etc. to stop people tramping round so much.  

[alibear]

I think there were two things which caused this (as probably mentioned several times above): the increase in first-time Glasto goers coupled with hugely inexperienced security staff.

I got caught int the Arcadia bottleneck. It was awful. I didn't realise the time and went to use the loos at the bottom of the park. I quickly realised the main stages had finished and tried to turn around, but it was too late. After about 15 minutes, I managed to get myself out to the Pennards Hill path and wandered back down through the campsite. Without being condescending, it takes being in a few situations like that to stay calm, and I had to work really hard to do so, even 10 Glastos in. If you've never been in that situation before and you don't know your way around the site too well, when all you could hear is one security person on a Tannoy saying "don't go towards the toilets" (which were impossible to see anyway!) it'd be even more savage, especially if you suffer from anxiety/panic attacks. Thankfully, I didn't encounter any dickheads barging or shouting otherwise it would've been a million times worse. I saw lots of people struggling as they had no idea what to do or where they needed to be. I hope it doesn't dissuade anyone from going back, it was no one's fault.

I was on my own and left my husband, who's a full-time wheelchair user, in the crowd at Arcadia. It took me AGES to find him (which was even worse for me, TBH).

I also thought I'd give an example about how clueless some of the security staff were. I should start by saying it's not really their fault; they clearly weren't given instruction and didn't feel empowered to make a call and take initiative for the some reason.

We sometimes use the accessible shuttle bus to get up to The Park, as it's uphill from where we camp. The disabled bus goes outside the gate and back in where the disabled bus stop is by Park Home Ground. Security wouldn't let the bus through the gate even 5m to let us out (bearing in mind that's where the fucking bus stop is!). There were disabled people waiting for the bus to be taken back to the campsite. Security also wouldn't let those people out of the gate to catch said bus, leaving us all stuck in limbo. We couldn't believe it! This is just one example we encountered showing the lack of logistical knowledge by the staff there. 

Again, this is not to slag off any festival goers or staff, they were all trying their best and all deserve to be there as much as anyone else. But if you stick them all in a massive field together, it was bound to happen, and the security need a huge amount of training (and probably a huge increase in numbers) before next year. 

[Festival Liam]

Just looking at the crowd for Megan on iPlayer, but also knowing how busy Macca was (I was there + reports), and also hearing JP was full to the edges for Jamie T ... there has to have been more people on site? Everywhere seemed full for all headliners.

I remember I was stuck in an awful spot for The Stones, so I left and saw the whole of Hurts with about 20 rows of people in the John Peel tent. Absolutely empty. Whoever was on Other was quiet too from what I remember. 

[Alvoram]

1 hour ago, 4AssedMonkey said:

Didn't really have any issues with food/toilet queues either TBF.  But in fairness I've learnt from past errors that certain toilet blocks at certain times are a no-no and that eating outside of "normal" meal times helps hugely.

There's no way the licence will get changed to allow main stages to open on Thursday.  The reason WG gets away with it is down to geography as much as anything as the natural hill blocks sound from Pilton.  JP would be much louder from there as I think that's the closest stage to the village itself.  That's one of the reasons the SE corner gets the late night stuff, as it's the furthest point from any residential properties so causes the least disturbance.  For similar reasons, I don't think Arcadia in Silver Hayes would work as the noise escaping would be too much.

I'm sure the extra tickets were a factor here, but the more I think about it, the more I reckon the scheduling was the main problem.  Of course Sugababes/McFly were going to draw a huge crown to a small area.  Of course TLC would be be packed out when you look at the acts they were up against who were arguably less of a spectacle and would be easier to get tickets for in the UK outside the festival.  Of course Wet Leg had exploded far too big to be on the Park at 2pm.  Looking at what was kicking out and who was coming on at the Park/Arcadia crush, that was probably predictable to a degree also.  With hindsight, some of this could have been easily avoided with planning.

I think the earlier posts about maybe ditching some of the smaller and less populous areas (Cineramageddon etc.) and trying to spread things out maybe has merit.  I also agree with the earlier post about trying to get back more akin to JP = New Acts, Pyramid/Other = Established, West Holts = World Music etc. to stop people tramping round so much.  

I don't think it has anything to do with the location of the stage, the license restricts sound systems used before 10am Friday to just 12kw... (without the written permission of the licensing authority...) From what I can read in the license they could use up to a 12kw sound system anywhere they like, but 12kw wouldn't work anywhere much bigger. 

[4AssedMonkey]

The sound system in WG has to be more than 12KW.  Surely?

[LoraMaze]

17 minutes ago, Festival Liam said:

Just looking at the crowd for Megan on iPlayer, but also knowing how busy Macca was (I was there + reports), and also hearing JP was full to the edges for Jamie T ... there has to have been more people on site? Everywhere seemed full for all headliners.

I remember I was stuck in an awful spot for The Stones, so I left and saw the whole of Hurts with about 20 rows of people in the John Peel tent. Absolutely empty. Whoever was on Other was quiet too from what I remember. 

I know some people don’t think it was any busier than normal, but there really did seem to be quite large crowds everywhere. I left Macca because it got a bit intense up the back, and was surprised to get back to our tent in Oxlyers to find Megan had actually drawn in a pretty big crowd. Don’t know if just the good weather bringing everyone out all the time is the reason, or if there really were a lot more people than usual. 

[hez]

What caused the Arcadia/Park issue everyone is talking about? i.e. I am guessing it was around a certain act starting or finishing?

[alibear]

9 minutes ago, hez said:

What caused the Arcadia/Park issue everyone is talking about? i.e. I am guessing it was around a certain act starting or finishing?

I heard they'd closed The Park as it was too busy? The bottom entrance to Arcadia was deserted so it can't have simply been a rush to get there after the headliners. I so wish I'd gone to the bottom loos instead, otherwise I wouldn't have got caught in that mess.

[Dennis22]

11 minutes ago, alibear said:

I heard they'd closed The Park as it was too busy? The bottom entrance to Arcadia was deserted so it can't have simply been a rush to get there after the headliners. I so wish I'd gone to the bottom loos instead, otherwise I wouldn't have got caught in that mess.

If you look at the glastonbury app, and the arcadia map it has 6 entry/exit points. The map was wrong, as some of those entry exits were removed and tents were now there. 

 

 

[alibear]

2 minutes ago, Dennis22 said:

If you look at the glastonbury app, and the arcadia map it has 6 entry/exit points. The map was wrong, as some of those entry exits were removed and tents were now there. 

 

 

I'm absolutely sure we entered the Arcadia field at path you've circled on the left... We definitely approached form that end at about 9.30.