Crowd control issues

[GeezLouise]

Just got a response back. Here is my original email (tldr: it was dangerous)

 

Dear Glastonbury,

 

I’ve had a lot of time to reflect and let the dust settle but I still feel the need to email in and draw to your attention the over-crowding issues at this years Glastonbury. 

 

I’m sure you’ve had many many emails already this year but I would also add my opinion to the pile. I’ve been going to Glastonbury regularly since 2008 and have obviously noticed that more tickets are sold year upon year.  I understand hat making a profit is important, especially after 2 years away from the festival. However, this year the overcrowding was very intense and really affected my festival experience. 

 

I would particularly like to flag the bottlenecking between the Park/Arcadia each night. I got stuck in that crowd on one of the first nights of the festival and it was genuinely the most terrified I’ve ever been in my life. If I had fell, I would not have been able to get back up. At one point I was lifted off my feet by a surge and I did not touch the ground again until we had travelled at least 10 feet.  If it had been a rainy & muddy year, I’m sure there would have been injuries, crushing and casualties, similar to what was seen at astroworld. There was minimal staff around to assist with the crowding issues. If something bad had happened, there wouldn’t be enough help.  

 

I understand that we are 2 years into a pandemic and that our attitudes towards crowds may have changed and I admit that there were some strange crowding around the tents – Huge crowds outside but once you pushed through, there was plenty of space in the tent – very interesting.  However, that is absolutely not the case for the crowds that I was in this year. They were scary now and they would have been equally scary before the pandemic.  

 

I would like to point out that I am not an anxious person in crowds and plan ahead for any bottlenecking – for example, for Wet Leg, I got there an hour early as I knew that the crowd to get into the park area would have been huge (some would say it would have made more sense for them to be on the pyramid but whatever). I obviously wasn’t in the crowd attempting to get to the Park stage but I heard this was also quite dangerous from friends who were trying to get in.

 

I had friends who tried to get to the sugarbabes, Mcfly and TLC and all reported extreme crowds that could have turned dangerous and it was lucky that people kept calm.  

 

I would understand if this had happened once throughout the festival, but the reoccurrence each time is what makes it so frightening and definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. Once is an accident, 5 times (at least) during the festival is negligence.

 

 I have heard that you do not intend to increase the capacity further but some reorganisation of the stages (silver Hayes is pretty much always empty), expansions of walkways, further thought into act timings or something else needs to happen as it truly was very dangerous.

 

[GeezLouise]

Just now, GeezLouise said:

Just got a response back. Here is my original email (tldr: it was dangerous)

 

Dear Glastonbury,

 

I’ve had a lot of time to reflect and let the dust settle but I still feel the need to email in and draw to your attention the over-crowding issues at this years Glastonbury. 

 

I’m sure you’ve had many many emails already this year but I would also add my opinion to the pile. I’ve been going to Glastonbury regularly since 2008 and have obviously noticed that more tickets are sold year upon year.  I understand hat making a profit is important, especially after 2 years away from the festival. However, this year the overcrowding was very intense and really affected my festival experience. 

 

I would particularly like to flag the bottlenecking between the Park/Arcadia each night. I got stuck in that crowd on one of the first nights of the festival and it was genuinely the most terrified I’ve ever been in my life. If I had fell, I would not have been able to get back up. At one point I was lifted off my feet by a surge and I did not touch the ground again until we had travelled at least 10 feet.  If it had been a rainy & muddy year, I’m sure there would have been injuries, crushing and casualties, similar to what was seen at astroworld. There was minimal staff around to assist with the crowding issues. If something bad had happened, there wouldn’t be enough help.  

 

I understand that we are 2 years into a pandemic and that our attitudes towards crowds may have changed and I admit that there were some strange crowding around the tents – Huge crowds outside but once you pushed through, there was plenty of space in the tent – very interesting.  However, that is absolutely not the case for the crowds that I was in this year. They were scary now and they would have been equally scary before the pandemic.  

 

I would like to point out that I am not an anxious person in crowds and plan ahead for any bottlenecking – for example, for Wet Leg, I got there an hour early as I knew that the crowd to get into the park area would have been huge (some would say it would have made more sense for them to be on the pyramid but whatever). I obviously wasn’t in the crowd attempting to get to the Park stage but I heard this was also quite dangerous from friends who were trying to get in.

 

I had friends who tried to get to the sugarbabes, Mcfly and TLC and all reported extreme crowds that could have turned dangerous and it was lucky that people kept calm.  

 

I would understand if this had happened once throughout the festival, but the reoccurrence each time is what makes it so frightening and definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. Once is an accident, 5 times (at least) during the festival is negligence.

 

 I have heard that you do not intend to increase the capacity further but some reorganisation of the stages (silver Hayes is pretty much always empty), expansions of walkways, further thought into act timings or something else needs to happen as it truly was very dangerous.

 

This was their response:

 

Thank you very much for your email and your feedback. Your feedback is important to us at Glastonbury as it helps us improve provisions for future years.

 

We’re sorry to hear of your daughter’s previous diagnosis, and your experience at the Festival. Festival-goers' safety and enjoyment is of fundamental importance to Glastonbury and our experienced teams work extremely hard to keep crowds moving freely and safely. 

 

As always with crowds of Glastonbury's size - alongside artists that large numbers were keen to see - there were moments when there were very busy pedestrian routes and venues, and our comprehensive crowd management plan was put into action to deal with those. These measures worked as intended, and there were no crowd crush injuries reported at our on-site medical centre.

 

We have passed your suggestions onto the relevant teams which handle these elements to help with their planning and briefs for the future.

 

We hope this goes some way to addressing your concerns and we'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for making Glastonbury 2022 such a special few days. We hope your experience did not unduly affect your enjoyment of the event.

[GeezLouise]

Last post, sorry for spam. Didn’t know how to set it out clearly on mobile otherwise. What do you think of this draft response:

 

My email below does not mention a daughter so I must assume that a previous response has been copied and pasted and my earlier email not read? 

 

Can you please confirm that you will only take action on overcrowding and crushes when medical attention is sought or there are casualties? 

[gizmoman]

21 minutes ago, GeezLouise said:

Last post, sorry for spam. Didn’t know how to set it out clearly on mobile otherwise. What do you think of this draft response:

 

My email below does not mention a daughter so I must assume that a previous response has been copied and pasted and my earlier email not read? 

 

Can you please confirm that you will only take action on overcrowding and crushes when medical attention is sought or there are casualties? 

On the one hand, the fact they are having to cut and paste a response would suggest there have been several emails raising the same concern so at least they are getting the message, if they get enough you would hope some action is taken, at the very least, if something happens in future they can't turn round and feign ignorance, they have written evidence of the problem.

BUT, the response, "no one got crushed so we did a great job" (I'm paraphrasing of course), is so complacent it beggers belief, maybe it would be better to write to the council, they have a public duty to ensure safety so maybe they will take it a bit more seriously.

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 hours ago, GeezLouise said:

Last post, sorry for spam. Didn’t know how to set it out clearly on mobile otherwise. What do you think of this draft response:

 

My email below does not mention a daughter so I must assume that a previous response has been copied and pasted and my earlier email not read? 

 

Can you please confirm that you will only take action on overcrowding and crushes when medical attention is sought or there are casualties? 

Wow that is pretty poor from them! Was confused after reading both and thinking "what daughter?"

[kalifire]

10 hours ago, gizmoman said:

BUT, the response, "no one got crushed so we did a great job" (I'm paraphrasing of course), is so complacent it beggers belief, maybe it would be better to write to the council, they have a public duty to ensure safety so maybe they will take it a bit more seriously.

An anonymous tip off to Mrs Griffiths should take of things.

Agree that 'no reported injuries so things were just fine' is a pretty poor response.

[gooner1990]

8 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Wow that is pretty poor from them! Was confused after reading both and thinking "what daughter?"

My thoughts exactly, almost feels they have their fingers in their ears shouting 'la, la, la, la, la' etc

[Crazyfool01]

15 minutes ago, gooner1990 said:

My thoughts exactly, almost feels they have their fingers in their ears shouting 'la, la, la, la, la' etc

But maybe also dealing with some of the issues behind closed doors … the response is shit …. But I doubt the issues raised will be ignored . 

[Neil]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:41 PM, GeezLouise said:

It was more the crush around arcadia at night, the incredibly busy sets of McFly, Sugababes and TLC and then trying to get to Wet Leg. I said that once is an accident, 5 times (at least) during the weekend was negligence. Bit heavy handed but i don't think we should wait for something serious to happen before action is taken. 

i guess they were a bit caught out by how popular wet leg were? and wet leg were probably only on that stage cos that stage had booked them for the first covid-cancelled fest(2021? was it?).

[gooner1990]

9 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

But maybe also dealing with some of the issues behind closed doors … the response is shit …. But I doubt the issues raised will be ignored . 

Hopefully they are.

If its as busy in 2023 as it was in 2022 I may have to reconsider whether I continue attending because I can get about other festivals a lot more easier than that. 

[GeezLouise]

The response of ‘no one went to the medical tent so it’s all good’ is INSANE to me.

I attended Reading this weekend too which was not stressful at all, no crushing between stages (even with the two main stages starting 5 minutes after the other), food was quick to get without massive queues, managed to get in all the tents I wanted to. (Let’s not discuss the riots, everyone has their problems). It really hammered home how stressful Glastonbury was this year. 

[GeezLouise]

Sorry to spam the thread, this is what I replied with:

 

My email below does not mention a daughter so I must assume that a previous response has been copied and pasted and my earlier email not actually read? But it also implies that other people have been raising the same concerns regarding over crowding. 

 

Your email below seems to imply that you will only take action on overcrowding and crushes when medical attention is sought or there are casualties, which is concerning

 

I attended Reading Festival this weekend (which obviously has its own set of problems to contend with) and there were no issues with overcrowding. It was really easy to get from main stage east to main stage west without ever feeling stressed with the size of the crowd (pretty much all of whom were going from one main stage to the next). Food was easy to get without insane lines that you get at Glastonbury. All the tent stages were okay to get in without any overcrowding at the edges. It really put into perspective how much my enjoyment of the festival was spoiled this year by overcrowding and the small annoyances that come along with the frightening larger issues. 

[stuie]

Please double think before writing to the council en masse… the licence gets a lot of scrutiny as it is.  If was a strange year with well known problems about shortage of security, inexperienced staff, volunteers and festival goers and glasto will have already taken stock of what happened and be putting in plans for next year. 

[JoeyT]

Am I right in thinking there's something put out from the council by way of an evaluation of how everything went post each festival?

If so I'd be very surprised if something wasn't mentioned in that.

@Dukeicon you seem like the man who might know the answer to this

[GeezLouise]

Yes, I won’t be contacting the council, don’t want it shut down! Just want them to take it slightly more seriously…

[ProperTea]

It wouldn't surprise me if they already know something is brewing from the council licensing-wise, have agreed a strict line to take in response to it and won't divert from the agreed line in any correspondence, even if behind the scenes they are already making changes to improve their crowd management. In other words, they can't say "yeah we know there were problems but we'll sort it out next year" as that would be them accepting that something has gone wrong which they won't want to do as it could lead to issues with the licence?

I hope that's what's happening anyway and they haven't just decided to wait until someone gets injured before they make changes.

Edited August 31, 2022 by ProperTea

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, ProperTea said:

 even if behind the scenes they are already making changes to improve their crowd management.

Simple - reduce number of tickets sold.

[Leyrulion]

6 hours ago, JoeyT said:

Am I right in thinking there's something put out from the council by way of an evaluation of how everything went post each festival?

If so I'd be very surprised if something wasn't mentioned in that.

@Dukeicon you seem like the man who might know the answer to this

Not sure how much weight they actually have to give it though as it's mostly only recommendations. The past two festivals the report flagged crowding by the ice-cream van at the back of pyramid as an issue and it's still there.

[Skip997]

36 minutes ago, Leyrulion said:

Not sure how much weight they actually have to give it though as it's mostly only recommendations. The past two festivals the report flagged crowding by the ice-cream van at the back of pyramid as an issue and it's still there.

Surely there must be a maximum capacity.

[Leyrulion]

50 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Surely there must be a maximum capacity.

This was about crowd flows within the festival site itself, that are impacted by but not reliant on capacity. (You can still get crushes with half the capacity etc. 

Specifically appendix 3 from the report into 2019:

https://www.mendip.gov.uk/article/8461/Scrutiny-Board-Thursday-9-January-2020

Recommendations for 2020 – Continuous Improvement

1. Review areas of conflicting flows. In general terms crowd movements around the site were good and are improving. However there are pockets that are busy and can be frightening for people. Notably these are areas of conflicting flows where people of coming from a number of directions. Groups of people often hold hands, understandably resulting in chains of people, which contribute to congestion. The worse areas are crossing points of the railway line such as the Glade and the entrance to The Park and Arcadia in Pennard Hill Ground. These areas are often meeting points, near toilets and are difficult to navigate. Some progress has been made at some locations including VMS signage at Tunnel Cross and a roundabout using pedestrian barrier at Roys corner but I think further improvements can be made.

2. Review crowd flows along Furlonger during busy Acts. For the majority of the time crowd flows along Furlonger are good and have improved especially with the widening of the gap into Hawkwell. However during busy times it can be difficult to use this route and there aren’t really any viable alternatives. Problems were compounded this year by locating the ice cream van close to the disabled access platform and the emergency access trackway into the arena which causes another area of conflicting flow as significant numbers of people use the arena emergency access trackway as an exit route from the arena

[Rufus Gwertigan]

1 hour ago, Skip997 said:

Surely there must be a maximum capacity.

Give folk a 6 inch space around them and you could squeeze in another couple of hundred thousand. Sleep where you stand that sort of thing. The license has a max number I think.

End the day the capacity will be a feature of what people are willing to cope with unless there is a catastrophe first.

[Dukeicon]

9 hours ago, JoeyT said:

Am I right in thinking there's something put out from the council by way of an evaluation of how everything went post each festival?

If so I'd be very surprised if something wasn't mentioned in that.

@Dukeicon you seem like the man who might know the answer to this

There is a debrief - the report for the 2019 festival was produced in November 2019 but didn't go to a meeting until January 2020.

This is a de-brief report on Glastonbury Festival 2019 in relation to statutory duties of Mendip District Council and matters covered by the Premises Licence issued by the Council as Licensing Authority.

2019 Report - https://www.mendip.gov.uk/article/8461/Scrutiny-Board-Thursday-9-January-2020

[stuie]

2 hours ago, Leyrulion said:

This was about crowd flows within the festival site itself, that are impacted by but not reliant on capacity. (You can still get crushes with half the capacity etc. 

Specifically appendix 3 from the report into 2019:

https://www.mendip.gov.uk/article/8461/Scrutiny-Board-Thursday-9-January-2020

Recommendations for 2020 – Continuous Improvement

1. Review areas of conflicting flows. In general terms crowd movements around the site were good and are improving. However there are pockets that are busy and can be frightening for people. Notably these are areas of conflicting flows where people of coming from a number of directions. Groups of people often hold hands, understandably resulting in chains of people, which contribute to congestion. The worse areas are crossing points of the railway line such as the Glade and the entrance to The Park and Arcadia in Pennard Hill Ground. These areas are often meeting points, near toilets and are difficult to navigate. Some progress has been made at some locations including VMS signage at Tunnel Cross and a roundabout using pedestrian barrier at Roys corner but I think further improvements can be made.

2. Review crowd flows along Furlonger during busy Acts. For the majority of the time crowd flows along Furlonger are good and have improved especially with the widening of the gap into Hawkwell. However during busy times it can be difficult to use this route and there aren’t really any viable alternatives. Problems were compounded this year by locating the ice cream van close to the disabled access platform and the emergency access trackway into the arena which causes another area of conflicting flow as significant numbers of people use the arena emergency access trackway as an exit route from the arena

Thanks for sharing… informative but where’s Roy’s corner and Hawkwell? I know the site fairly well after 10 years and stewarding but don’t think I’ve heard these names before! 

[Leyrulion]

2 hours ago, stuie said:

Thanks for sharing… informative but where’s Roy’s corner and Hawkwell? I know the site fairly well after 10 years and stewarding but don’t think I’ve heard these names before! 

Hawkwell is the campsite you go into on the top right if you're facing the pyramid. That awkward bottleneck in the upper pyramid hedgerows. 

Roys corner, not a clue. Anyone remember a "pedestrian roundabout" in 2019 up around park/Arcadia?

[DeanoL]

13 hours ago, stuie said:

Please double think before writing to the council en masse… the licence gets a lot of scrutiny as it is.  If was a strange year with well known problems about shortage of security, inexperienced staff, volunteers and festival goers and glasto will have already taken stock of what happened and be putting in plans for next year. 

They've literally said the opposite though. And I can't get behind the mental gymnastics some people are doing "I'm sure they know their is a problem they're just not allowed to say".