Time to change the deposit scheme?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

4 minutes ago, dotdash79 said:

Tax code just say what your tax free allowance is. Not how much you pay, you would have to look at a p60 for the previous year. 

But wouldn't the tax code be based off of your earnings? I know there's ways of getting around that, but most people just have their tax done in the normal way without trying to dodge it. Anyway, it sounds like a no-go.

Just now, incident said:

I can't see any possible way they'd be able to validate the information provided is truthful. HMRC certainly wouldn't do it.

Okay, fair enough. It sounds like a non-starter then.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

In an ideal world it would be a voluntary system of paying what you can afford. And you would most definitely get some rich people willing to pay more than the going rate in order to secure a ticket. Unfortunately those people would be dwarfed by the number who’d stubbornly refuse to pay extra to compensate for poor people being allowed to pay less, despite being in a position to. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

11 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

In an ideal world it would be a voluntary system of paying what you can afford. And you would most definitely get some rich people willing to pay more than the going rate in order to secure a ticket. Unfortunately those people would be dwarfed by the number who’d stubbornly refuse to pay extra to compensate for poor people being allowed to pay less, despite being in a position to. 

Reminds me of Radiohead and In Rainbows. Think I paid 1.50 for that album when it came out. Was a student eating Hula Hoop sandwiches at the time, so felt like all I could afford at the time.

I'd be really surprised how honest people would be if that was the case for Glastonbury. If they gave a recommended price and then you offered to pay more or less.

Obv never going to happen, but would be curious anyway. 

[dotdash79]

18 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

But wouldn't the tax code be based off of your earnings? I know there's ways of getting around that, but most people just have their tax done in the normal way without trying to dodge it. Anyway, it sounds like a no-go.

No tax codes are new every year, you might owe tax from the previous year or have more allowances, which adjusts your code but most people it gets reset and is is the same. 

[Rose-Colored Boy]

22 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Reminds me of Radiohead and In Rainbows. Think I paid 1.50 for that album when it came out. Was a student eating Hula Hoop sandwiches at the time, so felt like all I could afford at the time.

I'd be really surprised how honest people would be if that was the case for Glastonbury. If they gave a recommended price and then you offered to pay more or less.

Obv never going to happen, but would be curious anyway. 

The other alternative would be being slightly less flexible and selling three equally-sized pots of tickets at three different pre-determined price points - say £250, £350 and £500 - with people of any incomes buying from whichever pot they liked (subject to availability). Too many reasons why that wouldn’t work either though unfortunately. Not least that, as happens with gigs, you’d inevitably get people who could afford the £500 tickets buying the £250 tickets instead ‘just because’. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Rose-Colored Boy

[CauliflowerEar]

1 hour ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

In an ideal world it would be a voluntary system of paying what you can afford. And you would most definitely get some rich people willing to pay more than the going rate in order to secure a ticket. Unfortunately those people would be dwarfed by the number who’d stubbornly refuse to pay extra to compensate for poor people being allowed to pay less, despite being in a position to. 

Virtually everyone would pay the least amount possible, especially those who have a lots of disposable income. I know i would!

Everyone is a socialist until they are given a choice to anonymously pay more money or less money.   

[DeanoL]

3 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I quite like the idea of everyone handing over their tax bracket code during registration and being charged a ticket price for that.

In Personal Allowance, that'd be 100 quid.

Basic - 150

Higher - 300

Additional - 500

Obviously dangerous for Glastonbury as they wouldn't know how much money they'd make each year, if for example all the tickets were taken by people in Personal Allowance. They'd have to implement a ticketing system where the tickets were evenly spread out.

That's an interesting idea but...

Quote

People would be allowed to buy tickets on the sales page for a bracket higher, but not for a lower bracket. 

Why? That would then massively advantage poorer people's chances of getting a ticket, and lead people to play silly buggers to get an advantage.

2 hours ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

The other alternative would be being slightly less flexible and selling three equally-sized pots of tickets at three different pre-determined price points - say £250, £350 and £500 - with people of any incomes buying from whichever pot they liked (subject to availability). Too many reasons why that wouldn’t work either though unfortunately. Not least that, as happens with gigs, you’d inevitably get people who could afford the £500 tickets buying the £250 tickets instead ‘just because’. 

What if all three pots went on sale on different servers at the same time? Do you try for the cheap ones, knowing everyone will be doing that, or go for the expensive ones, as less people will, increasing your chances of getting a ticket in the first place. But then, if everyone is thinking that, maybe the middle ones are the better option...

I love this idea as it's a fun bit of game theory!

[Rose-Colored Boy]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

What if all three pots went on sale on different servers at the same time? Do you try for the cheap ones, knowing everyone will be doing that, or go for the expensive ones, as less people will, increasing your chances of getting a ticket in the first place. But then, if everyone is thinking that, maybe the middle ones are the better option...

I love this idea as it's a fun bit of game theory!

Haha! I was imagining you just selected which price ticket you wanted on a screen added into the booking process, with any sold out price categories greyed out. Much like the various option screens you have to go through during the coach sale. But I guess there’d be numerous ways of doing it.

You could even run a ballot for the £500 ticket options, to effectively give people the choice between entering the ballot for the £500 tickets or trying their luck in the usual T-Day madness for the £250 and £350 options. 

[mattiloy]

6 hours ago, maelzoid said:

This is how to do it. And plenty of bank accounts have this kind facility.

I am all for financial independence and responsibility.

Strong disagree.

These days I have a decent salary and my shit together.

When I first went I was at uni and had two different part time jobs. Nevertheless, my finances were a mess, I guess I probs paid my first ticket via miscellaneous debt.

Having my finances in order is easy now, it wasn’t then.

I’m for anything that helps daft kids like I was then to get to the farm, and not just those whose Dads pay for everything, or conscientious puritan dorks always saving for the rainy day that never comes.

Make the festival rock n roll again!

[Suprefan]

10 hours ago, gfa said:

Its hardly going to go up £40 for next year.

The £300 thing is pretty ridiculous - Reading is visited by sixth formers mostly and its practically £300 now too but obviously glastonbury will get the flak for breaching it and not there

Its real world economics, just saying. Dont be shocked if theres that kind of jump. Everyones had them and Glasto barely kept their increase this year within the realms of a 2 year price hike. Things are even more expensive now and the money has to come from somewhere to make even the slightest improvements. Those bigger screens and extra repeater towers didnt come for free. I swear there will get to a point where Melvin is gonna get his Live Nation money into the fest and its all going to change, and not for the better.

 

And do not even dare bring in the bracket/tier discussion into this. You dont need the shit that is rampant in the states to take hold at Glasto of all places. Burning Man has done a similar thing of a higher priced guaranteed ticket vs a lower price one thats up for grabs to the general public. You want todrop  2000 quid to make sure you get into the gates or risk it all on the ones at 350 - 450, which doesnt include a vehicle pass at 100 each which you need also.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Suprefan

[CaledonianGonzo]

That already happens, right?

Some of the glamping sites offer guaranteed tickets in packages with their accommodation - but they're in the high 4 figures a pop.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

7 hours ago, DeanoL said:

That's an interesting idea but...

Why? That would then massively advantage poorer people's chances of getting a ticket, and lead people to play silly buggers to get an advantage.

What if all three pots went on sale on different servers at the same time? Do you try for the cheap ones, knowing everyone will be doing that, or go for the expensive ones, as less people will, increasing your chances of getting a ticket in the first place. But then, if everyone is thinking that, maybe the middle ones are the better option...

I love this idea as it's a fun bit of game theory!

Yeah, you're right, that's another disadvantage of the bracket idea. Was just an on the spur idea really.

[Lycra]

13 hours ago, K2SO said:

I can't believe they haven't introduced an installment plan already if I'm honest.

I think it would potentially be a good move to be able to pay it off as and when you like, a bit like a 0% finance plan from the day you pay your deposit to the March deadline date.

Then you open it up to everybody to do their own thing. You could pay it all off in October, pay off a bit a week, split it into 3, wait until the last day.

Instalment plans need managing and this introduces extra cost which will be passed back to the ticket buyer. And an unstructured payment plan which allows people to pay what they want and when they can, would bring most management issues. The concept of a payment plan is to spread cost over a time period but if significant numbers elect to do their own thing, then it's not really a plan and doesn't help people budget.

 

[km9]

You can tell that Glastonbury is over 11 months away!

Anybody thinking any payment plan or tier system would make it easier for them is sorely mistaken. If you need help spreading the cost then buy a money box and put £1 a day in it. If you can't trust yourself not to raid it then lock it and give someone the key. If you need the money to buy essentials, it's still there for you.

[Lycra]

12 hours ago, gfa said:

Its hardly going to go up £40 for next year.

The £300 thing is pretty ridiculous - Reading is visited by sixth formers mostly and its practically £300 now too but obviously glastonbury will get the flak for breaching it and not there

Glasto 2022 was £285 (£280 ticket + £5 booking fee). Then add ticket postage fees, car park pass, campervan pass, coach, train &/or fuel and you're looking at significant cost already. With inflation due to hit 10% any time soon  it's only going to get a hell of a lot dearer at a time when people are having to adjust to new financial challenges in life. A whole new discussion could be devoted to this. But getting back to the original question:-

For the deposit system to continue to operate as originally intended  then the deposit needs to be raised....and probably by a significant  amount. A doubling to £100 would take it near to where it was on introduction.

[gfa]

9 hours ago, DeanoL said:

What if all three pots went on sale on different servers at the same time? Do you try for the cheap ones, knowing everyone will be doing that, or go for the expensive ones, as less people will, increasing your chances of getting a ticket in the first place. But then, if everyone is thinking that, maybe the middle ones are the better option...

I love this idea as it's a fun bit of game theory!

exactly what t-day needs, more stress!

2 hours ago, Suprefan said:

Its real world economics, just saying. Dont be shocked if theres that kind of jump. Everyones had them and Glasto barely kept their increase this year within the realms of a 2 year price hike.

I'm optimistic we won't see this big of an increase, even with inflation. Raise bar prices not ticket prices 🙂

14 minutes ago, Lycra said:

Glasto 2022 was £285 (£280 ticket + £5 booking fee). Then add ticket postage fees, car park pass, campervan pass, coach, train &/or fuel and you're looking at significant cost already. With inflation due to hit 10% any time soon  it's only going to get a hell of a lot dearer at a time when people are having to adjust to new financial challenges in life. A whole new discussion could be devoted to this. But getting back to the original question:-

For the deposit system to continue to operate as originally intended  then the deposit needs to be raised....and probably by a significant  amount. A doubling to £100 would take it near to where it was on introduction.

[maelzoid]

9 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Strong disagree.

These days I have a decent salary and my shit together.

When I first went I was at uni and had two different part time jobs. Nevertheless, my finances were a mess, I guess I probs paid my first ticket via miscellaneous debt.

Having my finances in order is easy now, it wasn’t then.

I’m for anything that helps daft kids like I was then to get to the farm, and not just those whose Dads pay for everything, or conscientious puritan dorks always saving for the rainy day that never comes.

Make the festival rock n roll again!

I don't get how financial hand-holding is 'rock n roll'?

When I was younger, my finances used to be in a mess too, and it was nothing to do with how much I earned, it was because I was disorganised and immature.

The instalment system works for festivals that want the full ticket cost up front, but for a festival that gives you ample warning to save up, it's unnecessary.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

3 hours ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

That already happens, right?

Some of the glamping sites offer guaranteed tickets in packages with their accommodation - but they're in the high 4 figures a pop.

That's what I thought. There's already guaranteed tickets in some campsites and at a far higher increase on the standard ticket price than Burning Man.

[FrancisH]

Think this is something that really grates on me about papers like Daily Mail taking annual shots at Glastonbury for being "middle-class" while propping up this shower of shits in government. It has a large middle class and above crowd because everyone else has been totally shafted. It's now getting to the point where I'm questioning if I can really afford it, and I don't blame the festival for that.

Sure they could introduce a small scheme to help (how that is implemented I don't know!) but It's not for an annual music festival to improve social mobility in the entire country, the festivals demographic can only mirror back the state of affairs after 12 years of Tory government.

[DeanoL]

10 hours ago, mattiloy said:

I’m for anything that helps daft kids like I was then to get to the farm, and not just those whose Dads pay for everything, or conscientious puritan dorks always saving for the rainy day that never comes.

Right, but lets be clear, that's the people who this helps. Daft kids with money management issues. Not those on low incomes. Because when you're genuinely struggling, you learn money management pretty damn quick.

When you're struggling, you *want* your Glastonbury savings to be available to you to cover rent or food, if it comes to that. If you don't, then that's because you have a safety net, it's because you're not actually worried about being homeless or not being able to eat - and you want to be able to justify accessing that safety net earlier.

Yeah there are kids whose Dads pay for everything. There's also kids whose Dads bail them out when they get totally in the shit on occasion. They'd benefit. But the kids whose Dads don't give a shit what happens? Or are away? The people with no safety net, the ones who tend to become "conscientious puritan dorks"? Doesn't help them.

1 hour ago, Lycra said:

Glasto 2022 was £285 (£280 ticket + £5 booking fee). Then add ticket postage fees, car park pass, campervan pass, coach, train &/or fuel and you're looking at significant cost already. With inflation due to hit 10% any time soon  it's only going to get a hell of a lot dearer at a time when people are having to adjust to new financial challenges in life. A whole new discussion could be devoted to this. But getting back to the original question:-

For the deposit system to continue to operate as originally intended  then the deposit needs to be raised....and probably by a significant  amount. A doubling to £100 would take it near to where it was on introduction.

While I'm not opposed to that, it does make it harder for those on lower income to go to the festival. The more you charge up front or earlier, the harder it is. You give them the best chance by charging the minimum up front and waiting as long as possible to collect the balance. Gives people more time to save. More opportunities to put money away, less deadlines to meet.

Yes, it'd make it easier for those who struggle with money management, but it'd make it harder for those who actually struggle with having money in the first place.

[Lycra]

37 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Right, but lets be clear, that's the people who this helps. Daft kids with money management issues. Not those on low incomes. Because when you're genuinely struggling, you learn money management pretty damn quick.

When you're struggling, you *want* your Glastonbury savings to be available to you to cover rent or food, if it comes to that. If you don't, then that's because you have a safety net, it's because you're not actually worried about being homeless or not being able to eat - and you want to be able to justify accessing that safety net earlier.

Yeah there are kids whose Dads pay for everything. There's also kids whose Dads bail them out when they get totally in the shit on occasion. They'd benefit. But the kids whose Dads don't give a shit what happens? Or are away? The people with no safety net, the ones who tend to become "conscientious puritan dorks"? Doesn't help them.

While I'm not opposed to that, it does make it harder for those on lower income to go to the festival. The more you charge up front or earlier, the harder it is. You give them the best chance by charging the minimum up front and waiting as long as possible to collect the balance. Gives people more time to save. More opportunities to put money away, less deadlines to meet.

Yes, it'd make it easier for those who struggle with money management, but it'd make it harder for those who actually struggle with having money in the first place.

It's going to be difficult whichever way it's done but the higher the balance payment becomes the bigger the barrier it will be.

Individual budgets are already being hit hard and it's forecast to get a lot worse. Energy bills are expected to rise again and over the course of the next 12 months 40% of households with (low) fixed rate mortgage deals will see them end, with new mortgage costs rising significantly. How this squeeze plays out on the festival and leisure industry know one knows.

[st dan]

As much of us on this forum love the farm and it’s much more than just a festival - the harsh reality is that attending is a luxury.
If cut backs are needed for some to get through these difficult economic times, then unfortunately a festival really is one of the first things that should be going. Regardless of how much you’ll miss it. Not a nice thought, but im not sure how the festival itself can be more accommodating with the rising prices, and the fact it will sell out whatever they charge (within reason obviously). 

[DeanoL]

1 hour ago, Lycra said:

It's going to be difficult whichever way it's done but the higher the balance payment becomes the bigger the barrier it will be.

In overall cost, sure. But having to find £100 in October and £200 in April is harder than having to find £50 in October and £250 in April. 

The latter gives you an extra six months to get that extra £50, the former demands you have it in the bank immediately, even though you might not even get a ticket.

Again, people are confusing "low income" with "struggles to control spending".

People on low income are by and large extremely good at controlling spending and managing money. Because they have to be. 

I do feel like when people are talking about "lower incomes" here they're talking about 18-25s earning £20K in their first jobs who comfortably earn enough to buy food and pay rent every month but could benefit from someone going "you're not going to be able to afford to go to that gig and still have enough for Glastonbury". 

Not, y'know, actual poor people on minimum wage who might want to make Glastonbury the one holiday/extravagance they do the entire year.

[Johnnyseven]

17 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I quite like the idea of everyone handing over their tax bracket code during registration and being charged a ticket price for that.

In Personal Allowance, that'd be 100 quid.

Basic - 150

Higher - 300

Additional - 500

Obviously dangerous for Glastonbury as they wouldn't know how much money they'd make each year, if for example all the tickets were taken by people in Personal Allowance. They'd have to implement a ticketing system where the tickets were evenly spread out. People would be allowed to buy tickets on the sales page for a bracket higher, but not for a lower bracket. Could be quite exciting if you're in the Basic bracket, but happy to snap up a ticket from the higher categories if that means it's more secure to do so 😃

What about all the rich folk paying themselves minimum wage through their own limited company?

Does your tax code even change when you move into a higher income tax band?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Johnnyseven

[Johnnyseven]

13 hours ago, DeanoL said:

That's an interesting idea but...

Why? That would then massively advantage poorer people's chances of getting a ticket, and lead people to play silly buggers to get an advantage.

What if all three pots went on sale on different servers at the same time? Do you try for the cheap ones, knowing everyone will be doing that, or go for the expensive ones, as less people will, increasing your chances of getting a ticket in the first place. But then, if everyone is thinking that, maybe the middle ones are the better option...

I love this idea as it's a fun bit of game theory!

Surely this would advantage richer people, they have 3 price brackets to buy a ticket from whereas the poorer ticket buyer only has 1 unless they pay more money just to get a ticket, which defies the object.

The discussion here has moved on to making things way to complicated (and too expensive) for the festival to set up and manage. It would be much easier if people could be responsible for their own ticket money rather than someone else do it for them.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Johnnyseven