Vegans on the farm…..

[Sku]

22 minutes ago, incident said:

I looked at this a few years ago, and I couldn't find a decent sized (10k+) camping festival in the country that doesn't use pastoral land to some degree - the closest being Wilderness which has the arena and campsites in the grounds of the Cornbury Estate, but just fails the test because the Car Parks use farmland outside the boundary of the park.

Obviously, as you say, arable land is largely incompatible with festival season.

I know that the owners of the Matterley Estate (where Boomtown is located), had previously suggested a full transition to becoming a permanent event space, and stopping dairy activities altogether due to it's increasing lack of commercial viability when done on a small scale. 

However there have been planning permission hurdles over the years, and it seems that part of the reason to keep dairy farming, is actually purely planning related. If they stop dairy farming, it changes the primary use purpose of the land. Of course the vast majority of their income now comes form Boomtown, Moto GP, Tough Mudder, and some of the other events they run. There is not much incentive to keep the dairy farm, other than to appease the SDNP planning committee. 

It's an interest subject for sure, that festivals everywhere are so reliant on dairy farms. But it does seem there is a potential future in purpose designated "events" land, subject of course to the bizarre intricacies of land use planning rules of course.

[Skip997]

34 minutes ago, incident said:

I looked at this a few years ago, and I couldn't find a decent sized (10k+) camping festival in the country that doesn't use pastoral land to some degree - the closest being Wilderness which has the arena and campsites in the grounds of the Cornbury Estate, but just fails the test because the Car Parks use farmland outside the boundary of the park.

Obviously, as you say, arable land is largely incompatible with festival season.

What about Shambala? Not sure what the land is used for outside the festival. What is interesting though is it's effectively an vegan festival. Of course attendees can bring there own meat and dairy, but none of the food outlets are allowed to sell meat, fish or dairy. 

[incident]

8 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

What about Shambala? Not sure what the land is used for outside the festival. What is interesting though is it's effectively an vegan festival. Of course attendees can bring there own meat and dairy, but none of the food outlets are allowed to sell meat, fish or dairy. 

Most of the space used at Shambala is pasture - albeit I think lower intensity than most. You actually have to walk past one of the cow barns to get from the Car Park into the Oxfam Field.

[incident]

20 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

Beautiful Days would be the same. Festival site is in the grounds of Escot Park, but I think the campervan fields are on pasture. 

Yep, and staff camping as well.

[zico martin]

2 hours ago, Sku said:

Going to a festival surely helps support the repurposing of land traditionally used for dairy cattle. It gives the landowner a different line of income. Indeed, surely the existence of the festival already results in a less intensive dairy farming operation than would otherwise exist on such a large amount of land.

And as already mentioned, when you go to the supermarket, you don't buy the dairy milk as a vegan, but you do buy other products from the same store, and thus unavoidably support a non vegan business. Equally, when you visit Glastonbury, you only buy plant based products/tickets, not any dairy milk, but of course you are still unavoidably supporting a non vegan business.

There are extremely militant vegans that won't even go to supermarkets, but they are few, and I assume they don't go to Glastonbury either.

Yeah exactly this. I'm asked this every year as if i should feel guilty by supporting a dairy farmer, but the point is that I'm supporting him not being a dairy farmer! 

[Hotchilidog]

I'm a vegan and ironically I think the festival does a very good promoting veganism. The site is full of vegan messaging and loads of great vegan food.

We do not live in a vegan world and short of locking ourselves indoors there is very little chance of finding ourselves in exclusively vegan environments, so we make do and mend.

I personally reconcile my attendance at a dairy farm with the positive humanity that is on show at the Glastonbury Festival. Each time I visit my faith in humanity is restored and I think that is worth something, Glastonbury is more than just a music festival, there is that added dimension to it.

It's a shame Eavis is a dairy farmer, as I regard him as a great humanitarian.

[Avalon_Fields]

OK veering off topic a little but still on animal welfare: there was a hare racing around the CV fields on the Tuesday, obviously distressed and unsettled with its usual habitat invaded by us lot. Also, one of our gang saw two young owls crying out persistently in apparent hunger as their parents couldn’t find food for them.

Difficult to avoid these wildlife pressures with a huge festival on farming lands, apart from trying to protect the water from contamination it would be good if more protective action could be achieved somehow?

[Skip997]

Just now, Avalon_Fields said:

Difficult to avoid these wildlife pressures with a huge festival on farming lands, apart from trying to protect the water from contamination it would be good if more protective action could be achieved somehow?

As much effort is made as is feasible to remove wild animals pre festival. There's always a performance with removing deer.

[Smeble]

Veganism seems to be like a religion to some, and like most religious people they find it impossible to keep their views to themselves. They, for some reason, feel the need to try to ‘convert’ 🙄🙄 everyone they meet( so tempted to do a pun here). So it’s a little surprising how easy they put their beliefs aside for the sake of a piss up in a field, hey ho.

As for the environmental side of veganism it’s vastly over stated, yes anyone with eyes can see we eat far too much meat, and the intensive farming that is needed to fulfil that need is a disaster in the making. However if humans went vegan that would also be an environmental disaster, first off the sheer numbers of animals that would be slaughtered would be astronomical, surely no vegan wants that, plus where do people think all the food will be grown, we certainly won’t be putting land back to rainforest that’s for sure, then there’s the impact on us as a species, there’s a reason we are the most intelligent and powerful creature on the planet, our diet, which created our large brains, we are omnivores, you only have to look at your own teeth to see we have evolved to eat meat, we also don’t have the stomachs or bacteria to digest plant matter and we are intelligent because of the meat we eat. Almost every intelligent animal on the planet eats meat, that’s no coincidence.

I wonder how vegans view other animals that eat meat? Or is is just humnans they despise?

[Mark E. Spliff]

30 minutes ago, Smeble said:

Veganism seems to be like a religion to some, and like most religious people they find it impossible to keep their views to themselves. They, for some reason, feel the need to try to ‘convert’ 🙄🙄 everyone they meet( so tempted to do a pun here). So it’s a little surprising how easy they put their beliefs aside for the sake of a piss up in a field, hey ho.

As for the environmental side of veganism it’s vastly over stated, yes anyone with eyes can see we eat far too much meat, and the intensive farming that is needed to fulfil that need is a disaster in the making. However if humans went vegan that would also be an environmental disaster, first off the sheer numbers of animals that would be slaughtered would be astronomical, surely no vegan wants that, plus where do people think all the food will be grown, we certainly won’t be putting land back to rainforest that’s for sure, then there’s the impact on us as a species, there’s a reason we are the most intelligent and powerful creature on the planet, our diet, which created our large brains, we are omnivores, you only have to look at your own teeth to see we have evolved to eat meat, we also don’t have the stomachs or bacteria to digest plant matter and we are intelligent because of the meat we eat. Almost every intelligent animal on the planet eats meat, that’s no coincidence.

I wonder how vegans view other animals that eat meat? Or is is just humnans they despise?

I'm not a vegetarian, let alone a vegan, but this is clearly bollocks.  If someone was trying to do a satirical lampoon of an ill-informed 'bloke down the pub' rant, they'd probably have stopped short of the amount of wrongness you've opted to go with here.  If you want anyone to debate any of your views, it would be good manners to first clue yourself up with  a suitable Google search e.g. 'comparison plant-based meat carbon footprint.'   (You shouldn't expect people to spoonfeed you factual information when it's already freely available.)  There are discussions to be had on the margins, e.g. whether it's better to graze livestock on marginal land which isn't suitable for crops, but the assertion that a plant-based diet would be worse for the environment is batshit crazy.

But thanks for letting me know I don't have the stomach or bacteria to digest plant matter.  I'm just off to throw out the sack of potatoes I've just bought - that was a close call.

[Sku]

2 hours ago, Smeble said:

Veganism seems to be like a religion to some, and like most religious people they find it impossible to keep their views to themselves. They, for some reason, feel the need to try to ‘convert’ 🙄🙄 everyone they meet( so tempted to do a pun here). So it’s a little surprising how easy they put their beliefs aside for the sake of a piss up in a field, hey ho.

As for the environmental side of veganism it’s vastly over stated, yes anyone with eyes can see we eat far too much meat, and the intensive farming that is needed to fulfil that need is a disaster in the making. However if humans went vegan that would also be an environmental disaster, first off the sheer numbers of animals that would be slaughtered would be astronomical, surely no vegan wants that, plus where do people think all the food will be grown, we certainly won’t be putting land back to rainforest that’s for sure, then there’s the impact on us as a species, there’s a reason we are the most intelligent and powerful creature on the planet, our diet, which created our large brains, we are omnivores, you only have to look at your own teeth to see we have evolved to eat meat, we also don’t have the stomachs or bacteria to digest plant matter and we are intelligent because of the meat we eat. Almost every intelligent animal on the planet eats meat, that’s no coincidence.

I wonder how vegans view other animals that eat meat? Or is is just humnans they despise?

Not sure if this is a troll or not.

It must be though, as it pretty much perfectly completes the entire "anti vegan trope" bingo card. Can't have been done by accident.

[blutarsky]

11 hours ago, Smeble said:

Veganism seems to be like a religion to some, and like most religious people they find it impossible to keep their views to themselves. They, for some reason, feel the need to try to ‘convert’ 🙄🙄 everyone they meet( so tempted to do a pun here). So it’s a little surprising how easy they put their beliefs aside for the sake of a piss up in a field, hey ho.

I haven't encountered this on eFests at all. There are loads of vegans and none are evangelical. I've come across it IRL, most notably in the 2 months my dad went vegan after watching a documentary. I literally couldn't see him without him lecturing about meat-eating causing cancer and how unhealthy it is - all while existing on a diet of almost exclusively chips 😁

8 hours ago, Sku said:

Not sure if this is a troll or not.

It must be though, as it pretty much perfectly completes the entire "anti vegan trope" bingo card. Can't have been done by accident.

Not a troll, regular poster. 

[Avalon_Fields]

18 hours ago, Skip997 said:

As much effort is made as is feasible to remove wild animals pre festival. There's always a performance with removing deer.

Do they? I never knew that. Where do they remove the deer to?

[Skip997]

Just now, Avalon_Fields said:

Do they? I never knew that. Where do they remove the deer to?

Outside the fence, beyond that no idea.

[DeanoL]

11 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Not sure how a vegan doesn't look absolutely hypocritical attending the festival to be honest.  The festival was started to keep the farm in business due to the debts it had.  

Recently converted to eating more meat free products.  Meat free burgers and kebab meat for the win lol.  Love meat but we do have to change.

Depends why you're a vegan. If it's animal cruelty then fair enough. If it's environmental or health reasons then it's different. 

[Skip997]

11 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

 The festival was started to keep the farm in business due to the debts it had.  

 

No idea where you got this info, but it's kind of the opposite. The early festivals nearly bankrupted him, it was the farming that paid the bills.

[Skip997]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Nope..  its right...  and you are right...  He did it because the farm was struggling and it initially made things worse.

He started the festival because he wanted to after being inspired by the Bath Blues Festival (?), nothing to do with making money.

Quote

It was the Blues festival at the Bath & West Showground that had inspired Michael Eavis to begin a festival of his own although on a smaller scale.

The first festival in 1970 only cost £1, the second in 1971 was free, there wasn't another until 1979, hardly a great way to make money.

Glastonbury Festival's primary purpose has never been about making money, hence the huge charity donations.

[Skip997]

6 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

No you are taking a quote and running a mile...  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/concerts/hippies-baths-endless-debt-glastonbury-worlds-greatest-accidental/

This isn't the only source and its well known...
 

Please apply a little more effort when posting and telling them they are wrong 😛 

So why make 1971 free?

[Skip997]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

More people come and buy food and drink from the farm off-setting the £1 lost on entry ?   

No of this is a secret or ground breaking revelation.  From memory its actually on the documentary as well lol. 

At the first festival milk was free.

I watched the documentary and heard the opposite to what you heard. Strange, but quite common, that two people can witness the same thing as come to opposite conclusions.

[moogster]

HAs anyone else noticed the few posters around for veganism/against animal cruelty? Some people were active there. From memory something like "5 fish had to die for your one tuna sandwich"? 

[The Toxic Avenger]

If you think about the question that started this thread, it's a bit dodgy, no?  It's based on a dubious premise, i.e. that anyone who takes a moral decision can be condemned as a hypocrite if they don't scrupulously maintain that moral standard in every aspect of their lives.  Exactly the same dubious premise was used by the right wing press and internet echo chambers to attack climate change protesters who travelled to COP26 in Glasgow by anything other than bare feet.

The 'virtue-signalling hypocrite' label is  one of the main tactics being employed by those with a vested interest in promoting climate change scepticism.  It's effectively demanding that anyone who tries to do the right thing must live a puritanical life (which is pretty much impossible in a modern western economy) or face the scorn of the Daily Mail and the moronic masses of populist social media.

[moogster]

You're not going to change it all in one day, at a personal level, festival level, or society level.

Do I have leather shoes? I do. Do I buy new leather shoes? I don't. I'm not going to bin the old ones. 

Is WF a dairy farm? It is. Do they have more cows than 50 years ago? Let's say they don't. May not be needed to off the current cows just yet. Maybe one of the grandkids of ME will once decide that it's possible to go on without cows.

This can definitely be seen as hypocrisy but is long term probably a more effective solution than going all in at once or doing nothing. 

[The Toxic Avenger]

23 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Not sure if that is dubious.    Arguably the definition of hypocrite..

In the 'Barry Fish modern populist dictionary,' it may well be the definition of hypocrisy, and the Daily Mail would love to convince us of that, but it isn't.

Being a vegetarian means you don't eat animals.  Being a vegan means you don't eat animal-based foodstuffs.  That's it: there's no swearing-in ceremony where they commit to not visiting dairy farms - they just don't eat the produce of those places.  It would be near-impossible for any person in the UK to live a life where they don't frequent businesses which are part of the meat/dairy food-chain, and to demand that they do is really just a sly attack on them.

A bit of help with definitions for you though Barry: if someone announced: 'nobody should visit dairy farms on religious/animal cruelty/environmental/whatever grounds,' but then visited Glastonbury, that would be hypocrisy.  You'd first need to find the people who've made such an announcement before you could inform them they were hypocrites though, and I think you'll have slim pickings there.

Edited July 8, 2022 by The Toxic Avenger

[The Toxic Avenger]

12 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

The absolute need to not only be "vegan" but to show it and be lorded for it without any sort of question or challenge is such a modern snapchat / insta generation thing 🙂 

And this is where you earn your Daily Mail populist label Barry.  Now try and silence your internal monologue about the loony left, political correctness gone mad, virtue-signalling, social media-obsessed youngsters etc. and try and come to this discussion with a clean sheet.  The simple facts are simple and unequivocal: vegetarians/vegans have only made a personal decision on what they will and won't eat.  Being vegan/vegetarian doesn't require you to avoid shops that sell animal products or sites where it's produced.  There's no hypocrisy involved in going to Glastonbury.

If you want a thread on virtue signalling etc. - start one.

[DeanoL]

2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Well cruelty and environmental issue both apply to a farm. 

I think you are doing that lazy thing by the way of redefining what a vegan is.  I am switching to more plant based food for health and environmental reason but I am not a vegan.  
 

No, there's a huge number of environmental vegans that don't believe we need to cut out meat entirely, but just reduce our animal product consumption *as a society as a whole*.

Their way of doing that is to eat none at all. They're doing more than is necessary, in the knowledge that most people will do less than necessary, so they offset that somewhat. 

25 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

  I vote labour as well you understand 🙂  

Your first mistake is referring to vegans and vegetarians as even being remotely the same.  They are not.  I am not sure you understand what a true vegan is by the way you are posting.  

Let me help.  A vegan is a person who believes an animal is not a commodity.  Lots of things come off that but thats the base principle which separates a vegan from a vegetarian.
 

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/vegan_1?q=vegan

Quote

vegan

 noun

 

/ˈviːɡən/

 

/ˈviːɡən/

1. a person who does not eat any animal products such as meat, milk or eggs or use animal products such as leather or wool
   • He’s a strict vegan.
   TOPICS Cooking and eatingC1