Cost of Living and Glastonbury

[clarkete]

14 minutes ago, Jose Pose said:

Glastonbury attracts a relatively diverse crowd, but it undeniably attracts large swathes of middle class people. That’s not so much a Glastonbury thing, that’s more a festival thing. Go back 10/15 years and festivals in general were far more niche, now they’re completely mainstream and peoples mums go to them. People who wouldn’t have dreamt of going to a festival 10 years ago now see it as a normal activity, it just so happens that Glastonbury is the poster boy for festivals with it being broadcast on TV.

The fact that alternatives to camping have grown almost exponentially in this time is no coincidence, and reflects how there are more than plenty middle class people there now compared to 10/15 years ago.

People regularly say such things about ages and it's simply not true. 

I first went 37 years ago with my parents and they weren't hippies, nor festival folk. It may have been rare, but there were plenty of Pilton or Somerset folk who went for a look. 

[Jose Pose]

7 hours ago, clarkete said:

People regularly say such things about ages and it's simply not true. 

I first went 37 years ago with my parents and they weren't hippies, nor festival folk. It may have been rare, but there were plenty of Pilton or Somerset folk who went for a look. 

Yeah, kind of my point isn’t it?

I think you’ve taken my post extremely literally, I wasn’t saying nobodies parents ever went to a festival before, but as you’ve said it was lot rarer, wasn’t it?

[danmarks]

The middle and smaller things struggling whilst big events are selling- a lot of that im sure will be the price of everything else, drinks, food, transport etc.

If i did one big 100quid ticket night and budget 100quid on top for drinks etc thats 200 spent.

If i did 3 £30 tixket nights- the amount of money on food and drink wouldnt go down so that's £390 spent on what would possibly be not such a gauranteed good time.

 

[Alvoram]

What defines ‘middle class?’ 

A lot of folk over 40, including many who’ve enjoyed going to Glastonbury for years and  regardless of where they started out in life, will have made themselves a decent career, paid off their mortgages, and have a lot more disposable income than others, especially younger folk just starting out.

Now they could have started out with nothing, properly working class, worked hard for where they are now, and continue to work to do the things they enjoy… Does that make them middle class?

On earnings alone, they will be, but then on that basis, only 19% of the UK fall into working class (earning under £23k) with the vast majority, 67%, being middle class. If you judge people on this ‘official’ basis alone then of course the majority of people at the fest are middle class, and I’m pretty sure more of you are technically middle class than you realised!!! 

‘Middle class’ covers a lot more honest, average working folk / families than some of you seem to think. And I’d be willing to bet, most of the people on this forum earn more than £23k. 

So when you criticise the increased middle class element at the festival, are you really criticising the normal working folk who make up the lower half of the 67% majority, or are you really talking about the upper middle classes, and upper classes??? 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Alvoram

[GoonerRob]

5 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

What defines ‘middle class?’ 

A lot of folk over 40, including many who’ve enjoyed going to Glastonbury for years and  regardless of where they started out in life, will have made themselves a decent career, paid off their mortgages, and have a lot more disposable income than others, especially younger folk just starting out.

Now they could have started out with nothing, properly working class, worked hard for where they are now, and continue to work to do the things they enjoy… Does that make them middle class?

On earnings alone, they will be, but then on that basis, only 19% of the UK fall into working class (earning under £23k) with the vast majority, 67%, being middle class. If you judge people on this ‘official’ basis alone then of course the majority of people at the fest are middle class, and I’m pretty sure more of you are technically middle class than you realised!!! 

‘Middle class’ covers a lot more honest, average working folk / families than some of you seem to think. And I’d be willing to bet, most of the people on this forum earn more than £23k. 

So when you criticise the increased middle class element at the festival, are you really criticising the normal working folk who make up the lower half of the 67% majority, or are you really talking about the upper middle classes, and upper classes??? 

 

Where did you get the definition of working class as earning under 23k?

Average income is £31,400 (last year) - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021/pdf#:~:text=Median household disposable income in,(ONS) Household Finances Survey.

Defining class by income is a bit of a fools errand. I know plumbers (traditional working class, blue collar job) who take home 6 figures doing manual work, what class are they?

[Alvoram]

9 minutes ago, GoonerRob said:

Where did you get the definition of working class as earning under 23k?

Average income is £31,400 (last year) - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021/pdf#:~:text=Median household disposable income in,(ONS) Household Finances Survey.

Defining class by income is a bit of a fools errand. I know plumbers (traditional working class, blue collar job) who take home 6 figures doing manual work, what class are they?

Just a quick google search mate, (I note that figure denotes average household income, whereas the one I quoted is individual salary.) 

 

But it’s neither here nor there, and you make my very point yourself. Class systems in the uk ‘are’ defined by income primarily, like it or not. And many many people I’d consider to be proper working class culturally, (not sure that’s the right term, but I can’t think of another.) fall into that middle class bracket. 

Likewise, many of the people moaning about middle classes here will fall into the middle class bracket and not even realise.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Alvoram

[balti-pie]

Its an interesting point, what decides the 'barrier' between working class and middle class? I think in a few years time itll come down to property ownership:

got a mortgage? you're middle class.

rent your home? you're working class.

Wages are inextricably linked to that, but where we should put the dividing line is a hell of a question, and also comes down to geographical area as well. i hate north/south divides, but a 'middle class' salary in merseyside or teesside is barely subsisting in surrey or east sussex.

Ugh, im generalising, i hate it 🤣 There's good people, and there's knobheads, and they can all fall into all kinds of substratas of society. 

[fraybentos1]

20 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

Just a quick google search mate, (I note that figure denotes average household income, whereas the one I quoted is individual salary.) 

 

But it’s neither here nor there, and you make my very point yourself. Class systems in the uk ‘are’ defined by income primarily, like it or not. And many many people I’d consider to be proper working class culturally, (not sure that’s the right term, but I can’t think of another.) fall into that middle class bracket. 

Likewise, many of the people moaning about middle classes here will fall into the middle class bracket and not even realise.

Yeah class isn't just about money. I mean basically any tradesman will earn over 23k for example. As I've said before, internet forums are full of middle class people, a glasto one in particular.

[clarkete]

2 hours ago, Jose Pose said:

Yeah, kind of my point isn’t it?

I think you’ve taken my post extremely literally, I wasn’t saying nobodies parents ever went to a festival before, but as you’ve said it was lot rarer, wasn’t it?

I think it's simply more common now because the people who attended have, in many cases, carried on coming as they became parents - indeed we see that every day in the posts here. 

Back a few decades the other thing that changed the demographic a tad was on Sunday, as the attendance thinned out (people leaving so they could go to work Monday) and the festival would pretty much just open the gates and let locals in. 

[Jose Pose]

5 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I think it's simply more common now because the people who attended have, in many cases, carried on coming as they became parents - indeed we see that every day in the posts here. 

Back a few decades the other thing that changed the demographic a tad was on Sunday, as the attendance thinned out (people leaving so they could go to work Monday) and the festival would pretty much just open the gates and let locals in. 

The demographics of festival attendees have undeniably changed over the past 10/15/20 years, you only have to look at just how many festivals there are now, how varied they are, and the proliferation of many and varied glamping options at any given festival to see this is the case.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Jose Pose

[Alvoram]

13 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Yeah class isn't just about money. I mean basically any tradesman will earn over 23k for example. As I've said before, internet forums are full of middle class people, a glasto one in particular.

No it maybe isn’t ‘all’ about money. But if nothing else it’s definitely the ‘clearest’ way to define class.

This is interesting, from the lower middle class section of the UK class system wiki page…

Quote

 

They are typically employed in relatively unskilled service sector jobs (such as in retail sales or travel agents), or work in local government or are factory and other industrial building owners. Prior to the expansion in higher education from the 1960s onwards, members of this class generally did not have a university education.

Members of the lower middle class typically speak in local accents, although relatively mild. Votes in this area are split and minority parties will have a stronger proportion. The comedy character Hyacinth Bucket is a satirical stereotype for this social group.

 

So even by other ways of classification, some folk may be surprised to hear that they fall into the middle classes. How many retail workers with no university education do you know that you would have said were middle class? 

There are lots of upper middle class and even upper class attending Glasto nowadays. I think these are the folk people refer to when they say ‘middle class.’ But I just think some clarification was needed. Don’t think anybody has any issues with Joan, the supervisor at Asda, or Pete the busy sparky saving up and attending glasto!!! 

[Supernintendo Chalmers]

Lots of shows are still almost instantly selling out. Look at the last 24 hours alone. If there's a crunch being felt, it's not necessarily affecting all quarters of the music industry. I'm not downplaying the economic situation, but there's seemingly still a lot of disposal income flying around

[p.pete]

52 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

What defines ‘middle class?’ 

A lot of folk over 40, including many who’ve enjoyed going to Glastonbury for years and  regardless of where they started out in life, will have made themselves a decent career, paid off their mortgages, and have a lot more disposable income than others, especially younger folk just starting out.

Now they could have started out with nothing, properly working class, worked hard for where they are now, and continue to work to do the things they enjoy… Does that make them middle class?

On earnings alone, they will be, but then on that basis, only 19% of the UK fall into working class (earning under £23k) with the vast majority, 67%, being middle class. If you judge people on this ‘official’ basis alone then of course the majority of people at the fest are middle class, and I’m pretty sure more of you are technically middle class than you realised!!! 

‘Middle class’ covers a lot more honest, average working folk / families than some of you seem to think. And I’d be willing to bet, most of the people on this forum earn more than £23k. 

So when you criticise the increased middle class element at the festival, are you really criticising the normal working folk who make up the lower half of the 67% majority, or are you really talking about the upper middle classes, and upper classes??? 

 

Not sure there's been that much criticism to be fair.  I've said things along the lines of if some people who regularly go suddenly find they can't afford it that there are (now at least) people waiting with money ready to take their place.  I suggested the knock-on effect of that is that the festival is actually effected, regardless that it still sells out, because there would be a different profile of people attending.  No criticism intended on my part for the people, whoever they are (Nadine Dories aside), wanting to go to Glastonbury.

Your post prompted to think a bit more though 🙂  Does it matter where we draw the lines of the classes?  My thought is, assuming there's a continuum - starting somewhere around children without food or roofs and ending somewhere around owning more swimming pools than I can easily remember - that the average person at Glastonbury has probably nudged a little upwards on that continuum.  

 

[Alvoram]

35 minutes ago, p.pete said:

Not sure there's been that much criticism to be fair.  I've said things along the lines of if some people who regularly go suddenly find they can't afford it that there are (now at least) people waiting with money ready to take their place.  I suggested the knock-on effect of that is that the festival is actually effected, regardless that it still sells out, because there would be a different profile of people attending.  No criticism intended on my part for the people, whoever they are (Nadine Dories aside), wanting to go to Glastonbury.

Your post prompted to think a bit more though 🙂  Does it matter where we draw the lines of the classes?  My thought is, assuming there's a continuum - starting somewhere around children without food or roofs and ending somewhere around owning more swimming pools than I can easily remember - that the average person at Glastonbury has probably nudged a little upwards on that continuum.  

 

I was surprised with the amount of z-list celebs just wandering around. People who a lot perhaps wouldn’t recognise… Lower league footballers, youtubers (especially,) bit part tv actors etc. So yes, it’s definitely trending up (not that I can comment on that, other than to take folks word for it, as I wasn’t there 15 years ago.) 

But the sole of the festival felt pure to me, especially after 9pm. Just good, friendly, caring people, of all classes, getting stupid, and having the time of their lives together… And long may that continue. 

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, Alvoram said:

No it maybe isn’t ‘all’ about money. But if nothing else it’s definitely the ‘clearest’ way to define class.

 

I don't really agree. You could be from a working class and earn 40k as a plumber. You could be middle class and earn 30k as a teacher. 

 

1 hour ago, Alvoram said:

How many retail workers with no university education do you know that you would have said were middle class? 

No idea. But if they grew up in a nice house in the suburbs and went to a nice school then maybe they are middle class. 

Doesn't really matter anyway, just saying Glastonbury is middle class as it comes and in some ways this is to its detriment

[Skip997]

10 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

I was surprised with the amount of z-list celebs just wandering around. People who a lot perhaps wouldn’t recognise… Lower league footballers, youtubers (especially,) bit part tv actors etc. So yes, it’s definitely trending up (not that I can comment on that, other than to take folks word for it, as I wasn’t there 15 years ago.) 

But the sole of the festival felt pure to me, especially after 9pm. Just good, friendly, caring people, of all classes, getting stupid, and having the time of their lives together… And long may that continue. 

For me the things that led to a significant change in the demographic attending the festival were: the riot in 1990, the introduction of the "super fence" and the increasing media coverage.

In my early days the demographic was in a way more diverse: travelers, lots of hippy types, gangs of bikers, punks, anarchist types and much larger numbers of black inner city types with sound systems. It at least to my eyes seemed to largely be alternative and "underground" types, more of a word of mouth event, rather than a media driven/bucket list/must be sen there event.

Again, my opinion and perception; I think there were far more unique and interesting characters there, you were never quite sure what or who you'd bump into, making for (IMO) a more unpredictable and edgy (in a good/fun way) experience. My opinion/perception; the demographic these days seems so much more generic and homogenized.

[Skip997]

11 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Doesn't really matter anyway, just saying Glastonbury is middle class as it comes and in some ways this is to its detriment

Totally agree.

[clarkete]

16 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

I was surprised with the amount of z-list celebs just wandering around. People who a lot perhaps wouldn’t recognise… Lower league footballers, youtubers (especially,) bit part tv actors etc. So yes, it’s definitely trending up (not that I can comment on that, other than to take folks word for it, as I wasn’t there 15 years ago.) 

I think it's about nineteen years since Moss first sparked newspaper coverage with her  festival wear, believe she was with Doherty at the time. 

Not sure if any famous non musicians got much coverage before her. 

I like many, got paid a pittance when I first  went in the eighties and I didn't go to uni (or poly). Never been under any illusions that I was middle class, but before that generation lots of folks parents were working class (eg. working long hours in mills for low rates of pay) 

 

[p.pete]

23 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

I was surprised with the amount of z-list celebs just wandering around. People who a lot perhaps wouldn’t recognise… Lower league footballers, youtubers (especially,) bit part tv actors etc. So yes, it’s definitely trending up (not that I can comment on that, other than to take folks word for it, as I wasn’t there 15 years ago.) 

But the sole of the festival felt pure to me, especially after 9pm. Just good, friendly, caring people, of all classes, getting stupid, and having the time of their lives together… And long may that continue. 

That's brilliant to hear, having missed last year.

Don't think I was paying much attention to the quality of peoples rainwear, I'd not even heard of Hunter wellies, when I first went in 2005.  All I remember is there being long queues to buy wellies, they were sold out in my size but had restocked by Saturday morning, and the wellies were shit but reasonably priced.  

[clarkete]

17 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Again, my opinion and perception; I think there were far more unique and interesting characters there, you were never quite sure what or who you'd bump into, making for (IMO) a more unpredictable and edgy (in a good/fun way) experience. My opinion/perception; the demographic these days seems so much more generic and homogenized.

I'm afraid you've got rose coloured spectacles on.  It was unpredictable and edgy, but in both ways. 

Many exciting things happened and you'd meet a broader range of characters, but far more bad things too. 

It's covered in the 50th anniversary doc that was on telly this year, but also to a small degree in this person's collection of clippings.

I haven't seen a fight or crush like I had in the pre-fence years. 

http://www.webm8.co.uk/riddler/newspaper_clippings/03-glastonbury/index.html

Edited November 18, 2022 by clarkete

[Skip997]

4 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I'm afraid you've got rose coloured spectacles on.  It was unpredictable and edgy, but in both ways. 

Many exciting things happened and you'd meet a broader range of characters, but far more bad things too.

Not really.

I'm fully aware that far more bad things happened, and as usual I've probably worded things badly. I find it very hard to explain the difference between then and now.

Again IMO there used to be far more truly weird things happening and far more spontaneous creativity, in contrast to the manufactured weirdness of e.g. The SE corner.

 

[fred quimby]

1 hour ago, Supernintendo Chalmers said:

Lots of shows are still almost instantly selling out. Look at the last 24 hours alone. If there's a crunch being felt, it's not necessarily affecting all quarters of the music industry. I'm not downplaying the economic situation, but there's seemingly still a lot of debt flying around

Corrected 😉

[incident]

43 minutes ago, clarkete said:

I think it's about nineteen years since Moss first sparked newspaper coverage with her  festival wear, believe she was with Doherty at the time. 

Not sure if any famous non musicians got much coverage before her. 

Does Robbie Williams in 1995 count? Not sure I'd have called him a musician at that point, and it did get a shitload of coverage.

[stuie]

37 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Again IMO there used to be far more truly weird things happening and far more spontaneous creativity, in contrast to the manufactured weirdness of e.g. The SE corner.

As I understand it, spontaneous creativity used to happen because there was no 'manufactured' entertainment?  I wasn't there but I can't see how some portable systems were somehow better than Block 9 etc? 

[Skip997]

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

As I understand it, spontaneous creativity used to happen because there was no 'manufactured' entertainment?  I wasn't there but I can't see how some portable systems were somehow better than Block 9 etc? 

They weren't, but I am a big fan of DIY culture. I'm not looking for a return to those days, lack of "official" post midnight entertainment was a problem.

Somewhere in between would be ideal.