The Smiths (and listening to bands with members you now despise)

[bamber]

This fore-shortened performance by the Smiths in 1984 changed me. More so it changed the world. The importance of this cannot be underestimated. It was tectonic in its influence and resonance.

Such a pity Morrissey ended up like he has. Spoils the story a bit, but the transition took place here. Glastonbury 1984. No film exists of this. I am in this photo, for sure.

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

There are different types of oddities, allegations, political opinions, and crimes, I guess. And it all comes down to your own personal compass.

Misconduct vs crimes vs personal/political opinion. 

The biggest example of misconduct is probably Michael Jackson. Without a doubt, he took advantage of children during his life, and to hang out with the guy, you'd probably think he was a total fruitloop. But his music is unquestionably fantastic. There were only ever allegations though and nothing was proven, despite all the rumours of his Jesus Juice etc, so for me, I can still whack on MJ and focus on his great back catalogue.

Proven allegations/heinous crime is a bit different. Any proven heinous crime like the bloke from the Lost Prophets - which is just so utterly abhorrent and disgusting, or Gary Glitter. Neither of those will ever be turned on in this house. The nature of their crimes mean they should never get any radio play in the future anywhere.

Petty crimes like cannabis etc, shouldn't really bother anyone too much.

Which brings me on to politics/personal opinion. The thing with that is, it works both ways. There are plenty of artists who have said weird stuff - on both ends of the spectrum, and it would be folly of me to turn their music off just because they had an opinion about politics.

Not that I know Morrissey's entire political opinion. But it's just that, an opinion. There's left-wing groups like Run the Jewels who talk about race politics and use the term white as a pejorative, but I still find their music awesome. I'm sure they're not really advocating prison riots and cutting off everyone's dicks, even if they are generally Left-wing in their political opinions. They might believe in white privelege and that there's an overarching system of white power - both of which I disagree with, but I wouldn't let it get in my way of enjoying their beats and tunes.

Obviously, there are extremes to political opinion. If the Foo Fighters released a song holding the Nazi ideology up as an ideal, obv I wouldn't listen. But then their careers would nosedive as a result - which is why no one actually would do that.

[Spindles]

21 hours ago, jparx said:

Johnny Marr is the saving grace really.

A working class hero is something to be.  Johnny Marr is a national treasure.  

[henry bear]

On 8/5/2022 at 3:49 PM, jparx said:

So, for the first time in about 5 years, I’ve had The Smiths on all afternoon and it’s thrown up all sorts of emotions.

I used to love The Smiths in my teens, and saw them 3 times including Glasto '84 (incidentally, they didn't headline. They were due to play 3rd down but came on early to accommodate Amazulu who'd missed their opening set. They only played about 10 songs in the end).

That said, my interest had waned by the time they'd split up. The last time I saw them was on the Meat Is Murder tour in '85. Back then, Morrissey came across as having left-leaning tendencies, but he always seemed to have a nostalgic view of how the UK should be, and I remember him being critical of R&B music, but I don't think I suspected him of being what he evidently was, or became.

They are now one of the few bands from my youth that I rarely, if ever, play now. Not because Morrissey is clearly a prize tosser, it's just the way it is. I can enjoy the odd song on the radio etc, but the albums remain stored.

I feel sorry for the other ex-members, and felt really pleased for Johnny when he came on to the Pyramid to play with The Killers. That's the nearest any of them will get to headlining.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Re: The Smiths.

The lyrics and the music haunted me, way back then. They still do now. However, now another layer has been spread over them. A layer of shit. It makes me wonder though - has Morrissey gone and done a Reggie Perrin? Did he need to add an accelerant in his haste to 'be' Joan of Arc!?

[jparx]

22 hours ago, Hugh Jass II said:

I still listen to The Smiths, Morrissey is an utter tool but I can still appreciate how great a band they were in their day. I wouldn’t pay money to see him at his own shows these days or see him at a festival if he was on.

I don’t listen to Michael Jackson anymore, choose not to.

Yeah there’s a definite line between someone being a complete tool and someone being stomach churning. Morrissey doesn’t repulse me in the same way as a Ryan Adams type, and obviously nowhere near an Ian Watkins. 

I guess the thing with The Smiths is being young and naive, you resonate with those lyrics and by extension feel as though you resonate with the artist. I suppose that’s where my ex girlfriend analogy comes in to it. You almost feel betrayed when that person doesn’t turn out to be who you thought they were and those memories end up sour. Perils of hero worship, and ending up more jaded as a result.

[stuartbert two hats]

49 minutes ago, jparx said:

Yeah there’s a definite line between someone being a complete tool and someone being stomach churning. Morrissey doesn’t repulse me in the same way as a Ryan Adams type, and obviously nowhere near an Ian Watkins. 

I guess the thing with The Smiths is being young and naive, you resonate with those lyrics and by extension feel as though you resonate with the artist. I suppose that’s where my ex girlfriend analogy comes in to it. You almost feel betrayed when that person doesn’t turn out to be who you thought they were and those memories end up sour. Perils of hero worship, and ending up more jaded as a result.

See also Ian Brown.  The man's clearly an utter tool these days, but that's not going to stop me enjoying the Roses, even if I'm far less enamoured with the aggressive undertones in the lyrics than I was as a teenager.

[Hugh Jass II]

8 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

See also Ian Brown.  The man's clearly an utter tool these days, but that's not going to stop me enjoying the Roses, even if I'm far less enamoured with the aggressive undertones in the lyrics than I was as a teenager.

When it comes to Brown and Morrissey I have no issue with listening to the Smiths or Roses as they were just a part of a bigger collaborative process. I do baulk a little at their solo stuff now.

[henry bear]

It’s an interesting conundrum though about separating your appreciation of an artist (or any person in fact) from the fact that they hold views you may find abhorrent. 

A case in point for me is Bryan Ferry. He’s a staunch Tory and pro fox hunting, indeed his son Otis was Master of the South Shropshire hunt. I naturally despise such people but, you know, Virginia Plain and all that. And I’m seeing them in a few months, and partly hate myself for it.

Roger Waters too. Politically very different (was brought up by communist parents, and remains left wing. Regularly winds up his US fan base by his pro-Palestine views, often aired at his concerts. I love him for this but, pro hunting.

I guess it’s unrealistic to expect the artists we admire to wholly have the same values as ourselves, unless we seek them out. It’s a question of where to draw the line. Certainly right-wing bigotry is a step too far for me, but not for all of Moz’s fan base, judging by the fact people are buying tickets for his upcoming tour.

[justanotheronethen]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:09 AM, Skip997 said:

Am interested in what the bolded artists have said that you disagree with?

Can't remember specifics (can't remember much of anything anymore tbh) but it irritated me. Interviews, not musical content, about the issues of the day

[wro_lap]

This is a really interesting thread!

It's interesting - with the Lostprophets thing, obviously that prick Watkins doesn't get money from their songs anymore, but the other members do. I've heard that they've formed a different band (who deserve support, frankly, as they've had their career demolished by someone else being the bottom per cent of humans in the world). It's just a shame you can't really support/listen to them without hearing a literal nonce's voice plastered on the top of it. I was never a fan of theirs, but if only they could've re-recorded the songs with a decent person on vocals.

 

Anyway, sorry to go off topic. The Smiths are ace. Moz isn't.

[Mardy]

This is a minor, way lower down thing, but..

Modern Nature. I adored their first album/e.p stuff and they were sublime when I saw them live last year.

Advertised a new album on band camp. Only available as a box set with the album, instrumental album, book, all that gubbins. Last autumn. £58 quid including postage. Was a bit skint, but as they said, only way to hear this music.

'Only available physically. Never to be repressed' says the hype sticker

So I ate bread and marge for a week and ordered it.

Arrived. looks lovely. 

Then, they announce it's being released as a single album on Bella Union, and it's also available on Spotify.

Put such a sour taste in my mouth. Can't listen to them now, no interest in them, was planing to go and see them, not any more. Contacted him politely on Twitter, and got a shitty 'I'll buy it back off you, loads of people want it' response. 

Arseholes.

 

[FloorFiller]

Brand New are one of my absolute favourite bands and I don’t think I have or ever will have such a rush of ecstasy brought on by listening to new music as I did when their last album suddenly appeared online out of nowhere after eight years of waiting. It was incredible. Everything I could’ve hoped for. Well worth the wait and then some. 

And then just a couple of months later, the allegations against the singer came out, they cancelled all their tour dates and quietly broke up, and all of a sudden listening to them wasn’t allowed anymore. Remember listing that album as my favourite of the year on here and a few people giving me a bit of shit for it, but whatever that guy did didn’t take away from the fact that that album was amazing. Still listen to them regularly, still one of my favourite bands.

I know some people really struggle to separate the art from the artist, and I suppose there are certain artists that I’ve possibly shunned for similar reasons, but good music is good music regardless of who made it imo. Hell, I still put Lostprophets on sometimes, albeit in the gym with my earphones in and with the constant fear that my bluetooth will suddenly disconnect and everybody will hear Last Train Home blaring out of my phone. 

[Dales]

I still listen to the Smiths & Morrissey's solo stuff. Do, I like the views he is associated with recently no. However, I never liked his views when he was a darling of the left. I can seperate most peoples views/opinons from their art. In no way am I trying to defend him but I do think he says stuff to be confrontational and cause a fuss. The stuff he comes out with is commercial suicide and I don't see why he does not just shut up and just put out music and leave it at that.

To be honest, I wish all artists would shut up. I dont need to know their politcal views, whether they voted for or against brexit. I hate the over sharing of opinions of all musical artists. Whether thats right wing or left wing views and I really hate the likes of Florence telling me to "turn to the person next to you and tell them you love them" or Bono etc preaching. Just shut up and sing the songs we want to hear.

Not singing the songs, I want to hear is one of Morrisseys biggest crimes. I dont care that he does not really sing many Smiths songs but not playing the best of his own solo material is poor. This may not be popular but National front Disco is a master piece. Like a lot of Morrissey songs, it can be taken 2 different ways. At face value England for the English etc comes across as racist/right wing. However, the song is not a call to go to the National Front Disco and be part of that "culture" but it is sung as almost a warning about a boy who has lost his way/dreams and is looking for something. His mother states they have lost their boy. I read the song as a warning of how people/groups can prey on the weak/lost but offering them something. The problem with Morrissey well one of them is that he never makes it obvious if its just social comment or endorsement. Obviously, the comments he makes muddies the water further.

Morrissey knows when he writes a song it is open to  interpretation. I think he courts contraversy. If you dont like Morrissey, you could build a good case with his  songs that he is racist right winger. You could also build a case he was a loony leftie. A weird chap but I like his material. Do, I like him? I dont know as I dont know him and I dont trust or believe much that is said by celebrities. Even if he was/is a nasty man does hat change all the good times in the past I had  listening to his music.

It probably helps that I dont idolise artists. I can like bands and have loads of their reocrds and dont feel any need to know the band members names or anything about their lives. To quote another manc band "Please dont put your life in the hand of a rock and roll band" Love the music but don't invest in the artist, in the end they will always dissapoint you.

Morrissey is clearly an odd fella. If he ever had a Glitter/Lost Prophet story then I know that would destroy any enjoyment from his music. Hopefully, their is a dark place in hell for those animals. Morrissey is yet to cross the rubican for me. I have tickets for his next show and as always will be moaning afterwards about the songs he never played.

It is odd how almost the entire world has made the decision to ignore the allegations about Michael Jackson and still play and listen to his music. I never liked his music, so I never had to make a decision about him. I did hope, I would hear it less after the allegations but no its still out there. I guess everyone has a different freshhold about what they will accept. I can be harsh about Jackson as I have no attachement as I never liked his music and it was not proven.

[stuartbert two hats]

6 hours ago, henry bear said:

It’s an interesting conundrum though about separating your appreciation of an artist (or any person in fact) from the fact that they hold views you may find abhorrent. 

A case in point for me is Bryan Ferry. He’s a staunch Tory and pro fox hunting, indeed his son Otis was Master of the South Shropshire hunt. I naturally despise such people but, you know, Virginia Plain and all that. And I’m seeing them in a few months, and partly hate myself for it.

Roger Waters too. Politically very different (was brought up by communist parents, and remains left wing. Regularly winds up his US fan base by his pro-Palestine views, often aired at his concerts. I love him for this but, pro hunting.

I guess it’s unrealistic to expect the artists we admire to wholly have the same values as ourselves, unless we seek them out. It’s a question of where to draw the line. Certainly right-wing bigotry is a step too far for me, but not for all of Moz’s fan base, judging by the fact people are buying tickets for his upcoming tour.

I have no such dilemma with Bryan Ferry. I don't count the early Roxy Music records.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, Mardy said:

This is a minor, way lower down thing, but..

Modern Nature. I adored their first album/e.p stuff and they were sublime when I saw them live last year.

Advertised a new album on band camp. Only available as a box set with the album, instrumental album, book, all that gubbins. Last autumn. £58 quid including postage. Was a bit skint, but as they said, only way to hear this music.

'Only available physically. Never to be repressed' says the hype sticker

So I ate bread and marge for a week and ordered it.

Arrived. looks lovely. 

Then, they announce it's being released as a single album on Bella Union, and it's also available on Spotify.

Put such a sour taste in my mouth. Can't listen to them now, no interest in them, was planing to go and see them, not any more. Contacted him politely on Twitter, and got a shitty 'I'll buy it back off you, loads of people want it' response. 

Arseholes.

 

You say it's a shitty response, but that sounds like an offer of a refund? Even if it was delivered in a rude way, that seems fair enough?

[Mardy]

3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

You say it's a shitty response, but that sounds like an offer of a refund? Even if it was delivered in a rude way, that seems fair enough?

Maybe, but it felt pretty 'fuck you'. The bit that makes me sad is I loved their music, but now have no desire to listen to it. Even if I got a refund or sold that record for silly money (like it going for now), I've lost a small bit of beauty from my life. I dunno. I thought that they might not be such lying, greedy money grabbing types. But I was wrong. And once you know that, it's pretty dispiriting

[wro_lap]

What's the general consensus on Lana Del Rey these days? I absolutely love her music and lyrics but I can't help but feel a bit sour whenever I listen to her. I can't help but not like her as a person. She's a controversial one.

[maelzoid]

The latest shit from Roger Waters is getting a bit tough to ignore. I saw him tour last time round, and it was stellar. But he’s basically become a pro Putin mouthpiece. The views are bad enough but it’s the self-righteousness that he delivers it with that’s really hard to stomach.

[stuartbert two hats]

3 hours ago, wro_lap said:

What's the general consensus on Lana Del Rey these days? I absolutely love her music and lyrics but I can't help but feel a bit sour whenever I listen to her. I can't help but not like her as a person. She's a controversial one.

What's she done?

[jparx]

14 hours ago, wro_lap said:

This is a really interesting thread!

It's interesting - with the Lostprophets thing, obviously that prick Watkins doesn't get money from their songs anymore, but the other members do. I've heard that they've formed a different band (who deserve support, frankly, as they've had their career demolished by someone else being the bottom per cent of humans in the world). It's just a shame you can't really support/listen to them without hearing a literal nonce's voice plastered on the top of it. I was never a fan of theirs, but if only they could've re-recorded the songs with a decent person on vocals.

 

Anyway, sorry to go off topic. The Smiths are ace. Moz isn't.

Interesting thought there on Lostprophets and re-recordings. Is there any scope for that? Could they, for instance, release a greatest hits record with re-recorded vocals? Could even get a host of vocalists from other bands in. Taylor has obviously done it for very different reasons and there’s a precedent for that.

I genuinely don’t know on this, but is there any notion that the other members had any idea of Watkins behaviour/enabled him to any degree? Or is the consensus that it took them by surprise and ruined their lives as well as the victims?

[FloorFiller]

1 hour ago, jparx said:

Interesting thought there on Lostprophets and re-recordings. Is there any scope for that? Could they, for instance, release a greatest hits record with re-recorded vocals? Could even get a host of vocalists from other bands in. Taylor has obviously done it for very different reasons and there’s a precedent for that.

I genuinely don’t know on this, but is there any notion that the other members had any idea of Watkins behaviour/enabled him to any degree? Or is the consensus that it took them by surprise and ruined their lives as well as the victims?

I don’t think this is anything that would ever cross their minds. They had a brief time at the top but aren’t exactly heralded as a legendary band in their genre or anything so I doubt it’d sell well, and I’m sure the other band members would rather just leave it all in the past now, especially with all the lyrics written by Watkins. It sucks that their income got totally fucked by what he did, but I’m sure they wouldn’t want to make any more money from anything he had anything to do with. 

[uscore]

A relationship with a band can be a lot more complicated than just listening to their music.  Particularly with bands you grew up with and saw live. Gigs are an interaction between fans and musicians, and especially for acts like the Smiths where people feel a real connection to them, particularly the frontmen.  The Smiths are from the NME / Melody Maker era where their interviews were part of the relationship, and where fans really identified with them.   

So of course it's difficult to unravel that when it turns out the singer is a prick.  The person you thought was singing to you, with you, is not who you thought they were and you could be reminded of that every time you hear the songs.

I was never a huge Smiths fan at the time, so it's not too difficult for me to separate the songs from the music, but I still prefer listening to Johnny Marr's versions of the classics now. 

[Hugh Jass II]

15 hours ago, Dales said:

 

To be honest, I wish all artists would shut up. I dont need to know their politcal views, whether they voted for or against brexit. I hate the over sharing of opinions of all musical artists. Whether thats right wing or left wing views and I really hate the likes of Florence telling me to "turn to the person next to you and tell them you love them" or Bono etc preaching. Just shut up and sing the songs we want to hear.

 

I

Everyone is entitled to their views. and like it or not everyone has a platform these days to share them, whether that's on stage in front of thousands or the average bloke having a rant on Twitter.

Always makes me laugh whenever a celebrity or sports person shares an opinion and the responses are always "just stick to football/music/acting" as if they aren't entitled to their opinions. Nobody ever tells a plumber to stick to unblocking toilets for instance.

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, Hugh Jass II said:

Everyone is entitled to their views. and like it or not everyone has a platform these days to share them, whether that's on stage in front of thousands or the average bloke having a rant on Twitter.

Always makes me laugh whenever a celebrity or sports person shares an opinion and the responses are always "just stick to football/music/acting" as if they aren't entitled to their opinions. Nobody ever tells a plumber to stick to unblocking toilets for instance.

Agree.

I like it when a celebrity or sports person shares an opinion.