UK Politics

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

yes agreed...so maybe don't write off Starmer when he's still just leader of opposition. At moment he is just trying to win. Blair was offering f**k all before the 97 election...it was all 3rd way mush stick to tory spending plans....and then eventually this...

Imagine if that happened to Starmer now...people would go megashit.

Tony Blair is very sexy.  If that happened to Starmer I would die. 

[fraybentos1]

4 hours ago, Ozanne said:

It is fact that FPTP in this country brings about more Tory governments so when I say it gives mainly Tory governments I am correct. 

FPTP gives mainly Labour OR Tory Govs as the 2 largest parties. Within that, of the 2 there are more Tory govs cause they usually get more votes than labour and win more seats, not cause FPTP generally benefits them more.

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

FPTP gives mainly Labour OR Tory Govs as the 2 largest parties. Within that, of the 2 there are more Tory govs cause they usually get more votes than labour and win more seats, not cause FPTP generally benefits them more.

its not the voting system that bring about  tory govt, its the voters, it'll be  the same voters wanting the same outcome if a different voting system is used.

interesting take on the by-elections by laura K

changing the voting system to try to gerrymander a different result, makes that different result less likely.

[kaosmark2]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

its not the voting system that bring about  tory govt, its the voters, it'll be  the same voters wanting the same outcome if a different voting system is used.

interesting take on the by-elections by laura K

changing the voting system to try to gerrymander a different result, makes that different result less likely.

I'm not entirely sure Laura K is exactly providing an unbiased political reasoning. I don't agree with gerrymandering but the Tories tried to adjust the upcoming boundary reforms in their favour, over that of what the electoral commission recommended. I don't think it's anywhere near the state of what the American parties do (and I would say both the major US parties do it), but I think you can point fingers.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

With FPTP/PR the smaller parties obviously are in favour, but many within Labour are now, I guess because they think it would most likely result in centre/left coalitions rather than centre/right coalitions. Not sure how true that actually is...So as Ozanne says I wouldn't be surprised if Labour runs on it one day, but not when they're winning big majorities with the current system.

[steviewevie]

Apparently Starmer nearly quit after Hartlepool defeat..I wonder who would have taken over, I guess one of Rayner, Reeves, Nandy, Dodds or Streeting...and would any of them faired better? I would love to see Rayner in top job just to see how that went, press would probably have a field day though.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

With FPTP/PR the smaller parties obviously are in favour, but many within Labour are now, I guess because they think it would most likely result in centre/left coalitions rather than centre/right coalitions. Not sure how true that actually is...So as Ozanne says I wouldn't be surprised if Labour runs on it one day, but not when they're winning big majorities with the current system.

i don't think they don't back it cos they win big with the current system, but because pr will see the left-vote fragment, same as it would the right vote, a split in social solidarity won't be good for the left. theres a lot of me-me-me about PR,  not about us-us-us.

Edited February 18 by Neil

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

i don't think they don't back it cos they win big with the current system, but because pr will see the left-vote fragment, same as it would the right vote, a split in social solidarity won't be good for the left. theres a lot of me-me-me about PR,  not about us-us-us.

yeah, I wonder if they would fragment...maybe. I mean both Labour and Conservative parties are big well funded machines, even under PR hard to get that funding and reach as a smaller party, but could happen I guess. 

Edited February 18 by steviewevie

[Nobody Interesting]

All over the world where PR or similar forms of voting are used it brings consensus. Parties are forced to work together and combine policies to work for the nations. PR is the least self centred voting system you can have and removes the constant 'party first' attitude of those who have held power for so long that we have here in the UK.
However you might think about PR - can it really be any worse than the shambles the UK has had to endure for so long?

 

and a May election has always been first choice and what has been worked towards for a long time now. The budget will be the deciding factor if they go for it then once they see the reactions of the polls to the policies and tax cuts announced................... tax cuts at the expense of public services that feed the 'i'm alright Jack' mentality that is all too common.

[fraybentos1]

Quite clever of them to release this biography now and do it serialised in the times.

show a more human side to starmer I guess 

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

Lots of people using illness for early retirement.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, I wonder if they would fragment...maybe. I mean both Labour and Conservative parties are big well funded machines, even under PR hard to get that funding and reach as a smaller party, but could happen I guess. 

The Greens would get more under PR which is partly why their supports want to bring it in, same for the LDs too. You’d probably have Labour as the largest party a lot of the time being propped up by those smaller parties then occasionally a populist rising up but they would never get a majority which would limit them. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

If we fixed the NHS then this would go a long way to helping those people get back to work. These people aren’t sitting at home by choice, the Tories have wrecked the NHS and this is a result of that. 

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

If we fixed the NHS then this would go a long way to helping those people get back to work. These people aren’t sitting at home by choice, the Tories have wrecked the NHS and this is a result of that. 

Even the NHS won't keep employing people with long term medical conditions.

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The Greens would get more under PR which is partly why their supports want to bring it in, same for the LDs too. You’d probably have Labour as the largest party a lot of the time being propped up by those smaller parties then occasionally a populist rising up but they would never get a majority which would limit them. 

Tails wagging the dog.wont get more left policies under pr. If other views would back then then. They'd back them now.

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, Neil said:

Lots of people using illness for early retirement.

got some evidence for that?

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

Tails wagging the dog.wont get more left policies under pr. If other views would back then then. They'd back them now.

I might vote Green if had PR.

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I might vote Green if had PR.

Splitter must have what me me wants without considering the wider consequences of that. It's what Thatcherism was all about.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Neil said:

Splitter must have what me me wants without considering the wider consequences of that. It's what Thatcherism was all about.

Maybe me me thinks what me me wants is better for us us.

[steviewevie]

plus, I did say I might vote Green, not that I definitely would....would all depend etc etc...

[Neil]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe me me thinks what me me wants is better for us us.

You'd only know it's better for us if you think of the wider consequences 

[Neil]

Fptp is a coalition of all different views similar to how pr is. If that grouping of views can't do what's best for us with fptp. That grouping of views will end up much the same with pr. The reason we end up as we do is due to the inputting views which stay the same in all voting systems if its the same voters.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

You'd only know it's better for us if you think of the wider consequences 

Ok, thanks for the tip. Green it is then.